Writing Excuses Transcripts

Writing Excuses 21.12: Breaking Down Barriers - Environment

From https://writingexcuses.com/21-12-breaking-down-barriers-environment

Key Points: Barriers? Environment: Desk, office, light, sound, etc. Standing desk, monitor, window, comfortable keyboard, sound. Desktop with dual monitors, and laptop. Clean desk, dual monitors. Dark cave and natural light. What am I running from? Check senses. Desk, story, or world? Sound or quiet? Pavlovian training. Windows, chairs. Playlists. Tiredness. Troubleshooting? Run through your senses. What is distracting you? Pay attention to signals. Figure out what to do to fix it. What do I need to do to fix this? What are you avoiding? Watch out for your phone's distractions. Turn off notifications, customize do not disturb. Smart watch buzzes! People in your environment? Signals for interruptible or not. Reading glasses. 

[Season 21, Episode 12]

[Howard] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses At Sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.

[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.

[Season 21, Episode 12]

[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Breaking down barriers - Environment.

[Erin] Tools, not rules.

[Mary Robinette] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[DongWon] This week, we are talking about the barriers to your writing process. We started off a little earlier this season talking about this sort of track of the curriculum this season, that is talking about, like, how do you find tune your process, how do you keep going, how do you make sure that you're in a space where you can keep working on the stuff you want to be working on. And so, we're going to be doing a series sort of following on to the process conversation about what are your barriers to writing? What are the things that are getting in your way? How to analyze them, how to figure them out, and some solutions from us on how to deal with it. So, the first one we wanted to start with is kind of the most obvious, what are the environmental factors getting in your way? And that could be everything from what's your desk setup, where is your office, what's the light like, what's the sound like, these kinds of things. Right? So, I guess what I just want to start off with is for each of us, what is your ideal working environment, and do you feel like your current workspace fulfills that?

[Mary Robinette] My workspace... Like, I honestly don't know what my ideal would be...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Because I move around so much when I'm writing. Currently, what I have, and I quite like it actually, I'm in a furnished apartment and it came with a standing desk with a giant monitor. And I find that I love that. I've had a standing desk before, and I really like it because it reduces... Like, I can just walk to the desk, I don't have to worry about pulling things out and stuff like that. But, for me, the things that I found that I need for a long-term writing solution is I have to have a window. If I can't see outside, I get, like, a little squirrely. I need a comfortable keyboard, I need a monitor that I don't have to strain to see. And then I need the right kind of sound. Which varies, depending on project. So, control over my sound...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I guess would be the better way to say it.

[DongWon] That makes sense.

[Erin] It's interesting, because I have two different sort of setups in my apartment. One is sort of my desktop setup, which is a desktop with dual monitors that are exactly the same size. It's just two of the same ones. And I do feel like I'm probably the most productive when sitting up in front of my desk doing that. However, there are times when I just get sick of working. I can't explain it, but I'm just like, oh, more writing.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] I don't think you need to explain...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Getting sick of working. I think it's a very normal emotion.

[Erin] Why? And, so, I also have a laptop that I use mostly when I travel. But sometimes I will take it and I will just sit in front of the TV. Which is interesting, because I know I am not as productive. But it's, like, I can work on half productivity but less annoyance at the fact that I have to be somewhat productive. If I sit on my couch and, like, type on the laptop while, like, 18 seasons of American Greed play in the background or some other show, that Cupcake Wars, that, like, is so repetitive that it doesn't really require my full attention, but every so often, something interesting happens and I can look up and be like, [garbled] cheated him out of all that money...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Or, they made a cupcake, and then go back to what I'm doing...

[Mary Robinette] I forgot that when I was in Chicago, I did have something that kind of felt like the ideal thing. I had a desk for work, like, etc. And then I had a chaise lounge that was wide enough for me and a cat for writing. And was next to the fireplace, and a window, and it was glorious.

[DongWon] Yeah. For me, I think a little bit similar. I have my own office in the place I just moved to, and I have dual monitors. One is horizontal, one is vertical, because a lot of what I do is look at contracts. So a vertical monitor is very helpful for comparing documents. I think the biggest thing for me is I need my desk. I need very low visual clutter in my workspace. So my desk is, like, clean. There's, like, nothing on it, aside from the devices that need to be there. And then... I think that's like one of the biggest things for me is just, like, not a lot of visual diversity where I'm looking. My biggest struggle is around natural light. I like to work in a little dark cave. Also, I really like natural light. Right?

[laughter]

[DongWon] So I think finding an easy way to balance those two things is the thing that I have yet to quite figure out at this stage. In part, my office is also, like, where the projector is set up to watch TV and stuff. And so it has really intense blackout curtains that I could just open. Do I? No. Which results in having a secondary thing which is I often take my notebook and go outside and sit outside and work if I'm doing something that's not computer based.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I'll go sit... We have, like, a little picnic table outside so I can sit at that and work. Or just making deliberate time to be, like, I'm going to sit in the garden for a little bit because I've been in my little cave all day. So I think balancing those is part of the trick and figuring out what do I need right now in terms of natural light, in terms of having, like, this little dark space that I can focus and concentrate in. It's an ongoing, sort of, like, how do I balance this?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I find that when I'm... It was interesting when you asked me what my ideal place is, because I've spent more time thinking about what gets in my way than...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, like, what am I running from instead of what am I running to? If that makes any sense.

[Erin] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So what I tend to do, because I have ADHD and I do get distracted with shocking ease, in hindsight, that was my whole life. But, like, I will run through my senses to kind of check to see, is it... When I'm bouncing off, going, it's like, is it a thing that's happening with the desk? Is it a thing that's happening with the story? Is it a thing that's happening with the outside world? When it's a thing with the writing space, the recommendation I have for folks is literally run through your senses...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Sight, sound, touch, scent, and taste. And, like some people, like, I cannot write with the TV on.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That's a...

[DongWon] Sound is a big one for me. My last apartment before this one was next to a major road. And having moved, I can tell how much just the constant road noise was draining me at some level. That I had [garbled]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And now, like, having a nice little quiet room has been so much better for me.

[Erin] Speaking of sound, I'm remembering the time I tried to, like, Pavlov dog myself into writing more constantly, years ago, where I had a specific song that I would always listen to at the beginning of every writing session, to the point where, like, I just associated it so heavily with writing that I could put it on... It had nothing to do, it was like a random Tracy Chatman song, but I was like, okay, like, this song is on, it's time to write now. Because it...  listening to y'all, I'm realizing that I'm sort of, like, a disembodied, like, consciousness...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] In that I think, like, a lot of times I just screen out everything that is happening around me and, like, unless it is really big, I will not notice it. Like, I wear noise canceling headphones in my house 99% of the time. And so when storms happen, it startles me, because until the actual thunder hits, I have missed the 18 other cues...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] That we are in the middle of a storm.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Oh, it got darker. Like, oh, this happened. Like, I've missed all of that until... It's like Googling, and I'm like, what's happening? Are we under attack?

[DongWon] [garbled] totally...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Oh, no, it's thunder.

[DongWon] Capable of working anywhere.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I've seen you work in, like, noisy bars, in airports, in hotel lobbies, like, in your hotel room, that I wish I was more flexible where and how I could work. There are a couple of tricks that I have for, like, working in places that aren't my normal space of working. You know what I mean? And, for whatever reason, this last couple weeks, we've been staying at this retreat center, and there's certain spaces here I work great in, and certain spaces I don't. And my room, unfortunately, is one that I don't work great in. And over the past few days, we've been limited to our rooms, and I've noticed that my ability to work is gone. Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I finally realized that I needed to sit facing the window because I've been sitting with my back to the window, facing into the room, and I was like, oh, look outside, it's better.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Also, those chairs are not comfortable.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Which is like one of the things that was happening to me in Chattanooga, that I didn't realize how uncomfortable my chair was. That it was...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Just uncomfortable enough that I was getting up, but not so uncomfortable that it was causing problems. And when I switched chairs, weirdly, the chair that worked best for me was, like, one of those old wood schoolhouse chairs...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Which just ergonomically fit me exactly right. So that was better. One of the things that I... I've also done the pavlovian training of myself. I have a writing playlist which is instrumental versions of power anthems which I love. Like violins with '80s rock power. It's just amazing. But I also... I started doing Brain FM, which is binaural sound, and I was like, nah, this is science driven. I was just like...

[DongWon] Sometimes, who cares?

[Mary Robinette] But sometimes who cares. And it is deeply annoying, because it works really, really well.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I turn it on and I do get more focused...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And I get more work done.

[DongWon] 90% of the time, I want it quiet. 90% of the time, it's just me working in silence. But there are certain times where I'm getting in a headspace where it's like my brain is too noisy, and I need something to, like, suppress that almost...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] In a weird way. And so a friend of mine made this playlist that we call work heavy, that is just like really pounding driving... It's like industrial horror rap basically.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] And it's like, the lyrics are fast enough and loud enough that you don't really make them out, but also, like, if you stop and listen, you're like, what's happening?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] What am I listening to? Anyways, they made this thing, and I use it all the time. And it really helps me, like, power through a block in a certain way. Because... It's just sometimes it's also, like, the beat and the aggressiveness will just be like, okay, I'm going, I'm doing the thing.

[Erin] It's funny. I'm thinking about like how tiredness also affects all of us.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Because when I... I also, like, I have a regular playlist that I listen to. And normally it's fine, like, I would ignore it, even though it's songs with lyrics or what have you. But the more tired I get... Late at night, if I'm still working, I will easily get distracted by the song.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I think because I want to be sleeping. And so my brain's like, I don't want to be doing this anymore...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I'm done with you. And so I actually have to switch to instrumental. It's the only time that I listen to instrumental, is, like, late at night when I'm still trying to focus, because I think I do focus more, and it's the one time that I need the extra boost to, like, carry me through my actual physical state, which is like...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Oh, this is not quite working for me.

[Mary Robinette] And just for our listeners, we are going to be doing a whole episode about physical fatigue later.

[DongWon] Yeah. But let's take a break there. And when we come back, I want to talk more about how to troubleshoot these problems.

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[DongWon] Okay. Welcome back. Yeah, so, we've been talking about understanding what your ideal workspace is in terms of these different sensory things. Right? Like visual, sight, sound, sort of physicality sitting in your chair and things like that. How do you start troubleshooting when something goes off? Like, when you're having a problem, how do you work backwards to is this an environmental factor?

[Mary Robinette] I really... So, I really do sit there and run through my senses.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And sometimes it will involve sitting in the chair and going, what is distracting me right now? What's pulling my attention? And, like, I will sometimes journal it. It's like, is there a problem with the story? And it's... I become aware that it's an environmental thing when there's not a problem with the story, and I know where I'm going, but I still keep getting up.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That's usually a trigger... Or a cue. And if I... If I'm doing some journaling, like, is there other stuff? Because sometimes it is the fate of the world. Which, we will, again, be talking about later. But usually if I sit or stand in my spot, like, what is making me feel unsettled right now? I also have to have a clean desk and for the long... Most of my life, I was not, but now I realize how important that is. So, that kind of thing.

[Erin] Yeah. I think for me, like, being... Because a lot of times, I'm ignoring my body... When something comes through, like, I need to pay attention to that signal. So, like, I will be sitting at my desk and be like, it is hot in here...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And realize suddenly, I'm like, oh, I forgot to turn on the air. Whatever. It's Texas. Like, it's hot and I'll be like, but, wait, keep working. And I have to remember that the three seconds it's going to take me...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] To go adjust the air or put a fan on is worth all the lost... Because it feels like, oh, I don't want to step away from what I'm doing, but then I'm going to think in like 30 minutes or 10 seconds, God, it's really hot, I'm so hot right now. Like, this is so annoying. And so I think it's like, for me, it's less being able to recognize the signal...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And more knowing what to do with it. Because I think it can be... This will sound weird, but, easy for me to ignore things...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, I have not eaten.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] So sometimes I'll also think, like, have I eaten today?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Am I hot? Like...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] What is happening? And try to, like... But I never thought of it sense-wise, which is interesting... Like, what the senses are. Because it may be that I'm noticing it without even realizing it.

[Mary Robinette] Well, that was the thing that I... That was the thing that made me realize that it was my chair, was that I was like, what is... What is it?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And just bumped through the senses.

[DongWon] I mean, the thing that I struggle with sometimes is exactly what you're talking about, Erin, in terms of overcoming the threshold of I need to deal with this. Right? The, like, I'm uncomfortable right now, but, like, I need to get up and go get a glass of water... I need to turn the fan on, because my room is hot. Or, I need to spend 5 minutes researching a solution to the problem that I'm having of, like, my pens are all over my desk and it makes me insane everyday. What's a better place I can put my pens? I need a caddy or a thing or something. Right? This also leads to the flip side of it, which is sometimes I end up buying 18 different productivity things that make no difference at all to my life.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] You know what I mean? And I'm someone who's very easily swayed by the aesthetic thing that looks nice, and then does not meet my function for whatever reason. There's an old YouTube video that I think about all the time that has a key line in it which is sometimes expensive things are worse.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I think about that a lot sometimes when I'm like, this notebook is very beautiful. It's not meeting my needs as a physical object that increases my productivity.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I will, in those cases, what I will also check is, is the thing that I'm working on something that makes me want to flee? Like, if it's something that makes me want to flee, then you're not actually thirsty.

[DongWon] Yeah,

[Mary Robinette] You just want to get away from this.

[DongWon] You're just being avoidant.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. You don't actually need a new pen light, like, it's... Right now. And so, I... When I am good person...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] I'm laughing because I just remembered a week ago when I changed the ink in my pen for no reason...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And clearly, I just didn't want to do whatever it was.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I have done that, and been like, well, Now I need to clean all of my fountain pens.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] But I find that if I can... If my desk is clear, then my notebook is there and I can make a note to myself that I need this thing. So, like, running through the... You had said, let's talk about some of the things we can do to...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Solve problems. I've already talked about some of the sound things. Sight things is one of the things I actually want to flag for people, because our phones are visual stimulus...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And they are designed to get your computer... Your noise. So all of the things that are happening on your computer. So, Nurse made apps like freedom.to. I have a minimalist app on my phone. Just turning off notifications.

[DongWon] Even just customizing your do not disturb setting so that you can turn it on, and then you know that, oh, if the school calls, it'll still come through...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Because I set up my do not disturb properly. Right? Even just taking the 5 minutes to do that could be really helpful.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I have a bowl that I put my phone into that's on my desk. It's an aesthetically pleasing Bowl. But the action of pulling it out of the bowl is so specific that I notice it, whereas when it's just on the desk, like, that's... You set the phone down all the time and pick it up. So it wasn't enough of a this is different. You set it there because you didn't want to use it. I know some people use a bag to stick their phone in. Which is just one... It's... You have to figure out what the barrier is...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And the opening the bag to put the phone in was too much of a barrier...

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] So the bowl works better for me.

[Erin] It's funny because I feel like I'm the opposite way, but the same. Totally makes sense. Which is, like, I wear a smartwatch because I think digital watches are a neat idea...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] To call back to a previous episode, and I just like the fact that it will buzz if something is happening that I need to pay attention to. So, to me, I think the danger is... If I'm just getting an email, I actually don't find that distracting. I can easily process, is this something I need to do, is it new work, is it...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like a thing... Cool, I'll deal with that later, and I use, like, a very not complex, but I use, like, a tagging system in my email to say, like, I have to respond tag.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So I'll just be like, okay, tag that to respond, then I won't forget about it. And I know it came in. But I don't check my phone to see if anyone has texted me or called me, because if they did, I would know, it would have buzzed. So there's no reason to just look, and I found that before I had the watch, I would pick up the phone, thinking, like, oh, maybe somebody in my family texted me, and, oh, let me check the state of the world while I'm holding this. Oh, God.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] But the notifications won't tell me about the state of the world, they will only tell me about the state of...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] People who are trying to reach me in this moment. And I can easily, like, for me at least, distinguish between what's important there and what isn't. And I don't freak out thinking I'm missing things, which I think is a thing for me.

[DongWon] I also do literally the opposite. But because my job requires me to not miss messages when they come in and get those notifications. So, I literally have a magnetic charging stand, so my phone is directly under my computer monitor so that if it buzzes, I can look down and be like, oh, my mom texted. I can respond to that later. Sorry, mom. Or my boss is calling me, I need to pick that up and see what he needs. You know what I mean? Like that.

[Mary Robinette] It's funny, because I developed the bowl because my... The thing I used to do was put my phone in airplane mode when I was working. And with Mom, I had... They had to be able to reach me. So, the phone would buzz. Like if somebody needed to get to me, the phone would buzz, and it was... It's much louder in the bowl than it [garbled]

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] But there's a... It's a limited number of people. And the vast majority of things... If they have to wait half an hour or an hour,...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] There's almost nothing that's that urgent, that is a business thing. So...

[Erin] Yeah. I think for me, the reason also... I was thinking about environment. I'm sure we're going to talk about this in another barrier later, but, like, I think part of environment is people in your environment, like...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] Who is in your environment physically. And I think, as somebody who lives alone, like, I think I also like the buzz because it reminds me that, like, I'm actually a person in the world, and people want to reach me, even if it's just to tell me about the great sale...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] That I can only get 20% off today. But it makes me feel connected in a way if I'm like, this is the fifth day in a row that it's just going to be me in my house working. And I think that is why I'm like, oh, at least somebody...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] At least the people at the sale care about me type of thing. That sounds bad. But it's nice to see, like, a family member's texting me. Let me see what's going on there. And so I like being able to have it right at hand.

[DongWon] Yeah. I'm sharing space with a new person in my life, and so when we moved in recently, we had to have a conversation about, like, okay, what are our signals for I'm interruptible or I'm not interruptible?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] What level of contact do you want throughout the work day? And, for me, it's... The problem with me is it's variable. Some days I'm like, yeah, you can come in and chat and it's fine [garbled] . There's other days where I'm like, I need to be focused on this. So even just coming up with a couple really clear signals to roommates, partners, or whatever it is of door closed, door open, maybe a certain light in the hallway on or off, those kinds of things. Just come up with some system that lets you signal to other people, hey, I'm interruptible, I'm not interruptible. The biggest thing I hear from people is they just constantly have these interruptions and it derails them. So finding ways to protect your space from your loved ones is also really important.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. We're going to do a whole episode on how to manage interruptions, because they do happen.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And so, like, how to deal with it when someone has interrupted you. But I have the same thing. Like, I had to... It's a... Even if you have them trained to not interrupt you, sometimes it can still be a visual distraction and make you go, what is going on? So, like, I had to set my desk so that I could not see the door, because my husband would come to the door, and I had a thing on the desk that said I was writing. But he would come to the door and you'd see this slow lean in...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Peering, as he was trying to see what it said, and then slow lean back out, and I'm like... By that point, I've already noticed him.

[laughter]

[DongWon] That's like a cartoon. This is really funny.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] But it's also, you like the person, you want to talk to the person...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] So it's like distraction is not necessarily them being an intrusion.

[Mary Robinette] Right.

[DongWon] Sometimes it is also like protecting our time from ourselves.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah. Having a reasonable response to a piece of stimulus. So you remove the stimulus by...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Not removing your spouse, but just setting it so you can't see them.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I also want to mention, really fast, reading glasses. Because this is a thing that will creep up on people. If you find yourself... You've identified everything else, and you get drowsy when you sit down when you are writing, there is a fair chance that you're having eye fatigue. I was having this thing where I would literally fall asleep while I was narrating, actively speaking. Because of the eye fatigue. And, like, you can solve that with reading glasses that you can pick up at the grocery store. Yeah. Shall we?

[DongWon] Yeah. So, with all of that, I have a little bit of homework for you. Which is, I would like you to use your senses and make a list of all the things that you experience in your writing environment. Sound, smell, texture, weight... Make an inventory of your body's physical experience of your writing space. And then, once you've made that list, consider what serves you and what is a barrier?

[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.