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Writing Excuses 20.48:  Now Go Write -  How to Pitch Your Work

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-48-now-go-write-how-to-pitch--your-work


Key points: How do you, as a writer, talk about your own work in a compelling way? Pitching is a skill, you can train, practice, and get better at it. Be who you are. How does this fill some one's need? Comps and comp titles (like...). Content and presentation. Think about your audience. Conversations, first and foremost. Not distilled plot, but tone, vibe, what you're going to think about. Category, vibe, and why. Comp titles, and Venn diagram overlaps. Back copy: character, conflict, setting, hook. A keyhole peek at your book. 


[Season 20, Episode  48]


[Erin] Hey, everybody. This is Erin, and I've got a question for you. What have you learned from Writing Excuses that you use for your own writing? Now, we talk a lot about tools, not rules. Which means there are things that we're going to say that you're going to be like, yes, that is for me. That's the tool I'm going to use in my next project. And there are others that you're going to be like, uh,  I'm going to leave that to the side. And what we want to know is which of the things that we're saying have really worked for you? What's the acronym you're always repeating? What's the plot structure you keep coming back to? What's a piece of advice that has carried you forward, when you've been stuck in your work? Or that you've been able to pass on to another writer who's needed advice or help? However you've used something that you've learned from us, we want to know about it, and we want to share it with the broader community. Every month, we're going to put one of your tips or tricks or tools in the newsletter, so that the rest of the community can hear how you have actually taken something that we've talked about and made it work for you. And I'm personally just really excited to learn about those, because a lot of times, y'all take the things that we say and use them in such ingenious and interesting ways to do such amazing writing that I'm just like chomping at the bit to get in these tools and tips and share them with everybody else. So if you're interested, please go to our show notes, and fill out the form there, and be part of this project and just share with us what you're doing, what you've learned, and how are you using it so that we can share with everybody else. Really excited, again, to get all this in because, honestly, what we say is made real and important and meaningful by what y'all do with it. With that, you're out of excuses. Now go tell us what works for you.


[unknown] kimi no game system... [Japanese ad for Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 48]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Now Go Write - how to pitch your work.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[DongWon] And this week, we are continuing our series talking about our upcoming craft book, and this is another one of the business topics that we are getting into. I want to talk about one of my very favorite things to talk about, which is pitching. Which is fundamentally just how do you, as a writer, talk about your own work in a compelling way. Right? I think this idea of pitching can feel very stressful to writers for a number of reasons. I think there's a lot of pressure around it because it's an important skill. Right? When we think of pitching, we think of going to... Trying to find a literary agent, trying to find an editor, and writing up the copy for your book, and having your perfect elevator pitch, and all of those things. Right? These are stressful moments, and I'm not denying that, but also, I want everyone to realize (1) what a career skill pitching will be. That it's not just confined to these little moments, that it is something you will continue to return to over and over again as an important skill as you meet readers and try and convince them to buy your books, and as you talk to your publishing team about future books you want to work on. Those are simply the most obvious examples of when you'll be pitching. Before we started recording, Erin and I were chatting about even just going into a freelance job and having to say, yeah, here's the idea I came up with, here's what I want to work on here. And that is also a form of pitching. Right? Once you start to understand the principles of how to pitch, you'll start seeing it in a number of other places and start being able to apply that. So the first lesson I want to get across here is that pitching, like any other thing, is a skill. And because it's a skill, that means you can train it, you can practice it, and you can get better at it. Right now, you're probably pretty bad at it, because everyone is bad at it. It's really hard to do. Right? And right now, you just haven't done it before. It's not a normal way to talk. Sort of. And I'm going to get more into how you can start thinking of it and integrating it into your daily life. But what you're doing is figuring out some specific strategies and some specific processes to start talking about pitching.

[Howard] Um. I'm going to say a thing, and then I'm going to invite you to hear me unsay it. And that is that the skill set for pitching is 99%, it's like coffee coaster Venn diagram overlap, with the skill set for sales.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Howard] If you are a good salesperson, you already know how to pitch, you just need the right content. If sales terrifies you and makes you feel filthy and you don't want to be in sales, you don't even want to think about sales, then I'm now unsaying it.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] And you can pretend that pitching is a completely different skill.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Because what you're pitching is something you made, not something someone else made.

[DongWon] Right.

[Howard] And invited you to sell.


[DongWon] Right. But at the end of the day, if you want to make your money from being a writer, you're selling your work. Right? At the end of the day, you are, to some extent, in sales. Because to get paid for your book, you gotta sell a lot of books. Right? So having that core skill of being able to pitch is sort of as a baseline how you're interacting with the world once you've written your thing. Right? So what is a good pitch is where I kind of want to start with. Well, actually, let's back up a second. For each of you, like, what was the place where you guys started when you were on your journey of, like, learning how to pitch your project? Like, that first query letter, that first talking to a friend about your book, what was the thing that you felt like was the first key where you're like, oh, wait, I'm starting to get how I'm supposed to talk about this?

[Howard] WorldCon Denver, I think it was 2007. We were trying to figure out how to hand sell Schlock Mercenary to science fiction fans. And we came up with epic science fiction, four panels at a time. That was the pitch.

[DongWon] Great.

[Howard] It is an epic, and four panels... What does four panels at a time mean? Well, that evokes thoughts of a newspaper comic, which says comedy without necessarily saying comedy out loud. Because declaring that something is funny is inherently unfunny and is a challenge. You're challenging people to believe you when you say it's funny. But if you say four panels at a time, they tell themselves it's funny. And yes, there's this whole strategy that goes into what you say versus the actual message that comes across. We sold so many books at that convention. We ended up printing slicks that said epic science fiction, four panels at a time on them, so that we could talk less and hand people things. And we moved a lot of books.

[DongWon] Well, to unpack why that works. Right? Is you tell people what the thing is very clearly. It's epic science fiction. Here's the category, here's how I think about it. Then you're giving me the thing that gives it texture and makes it interesting, which is a juxtaposition that's unexpected, which is the four panels at a time. I'm not expecting epic science fiction to be broken up that way. And you've structured the whole thing as a joke. And therefore, what you've communicated to me is that this is humor by the form of the pitch itself. Right? So the density of the information in that one sentence's incredibly high, comprehension, very easy. And I think that's one of the things that makes a great pitch, is getting as much information across as possible very quickly, and you're using all the tools in your kit to do it.

[Howard] And just so we're clear, that was the first pitch that really worked.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] That was where we started to see traction. I don't remember how many other pitches we had, how many other conventions I did where the hand selling was just a chore.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] But it was definitely iterative, and I...[Argh] one of those other things I may want to unsay... You don't want to hear that you're going to have to iterate this and work on it until you figure out that it works. But that's what I had to do.

[DongWon] No,  that's my opinion here, is you keep practicing it, you get better at it. Right? Your first pitch is going to suck, and then you try it on somebody and see how they respond, and then you find a better one.


[Erin] Actually, makes me think about karaoke.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] I don't actually think that I'm great at pitching. I just tend to... I have a hard time doing it in the world. But what I've learned about pitching is that, like, being who you are is helpful. Like, in some ways, like, you have to be able to carry off the pitch that you're giving.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You give somebody else this pitch and it will feel, like, weird and wrong and off because it's not you. And I think about when you sing a song that you really like at karaoke, sometimes what will happen is, you'll try something in the moment. You'll be like, oh, I'm going to go up for that note instead of down, or, I'm going to try to, like, add this little flourish, and sometimes it lands and people react to it, and you go, ooh, that was good. And that was something I came up with on my own. I should try that again next time. And, like, over time, you build the best version of the song...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] In some ways. You still never know how it will go on the day, but you have a sense of, like, I've tried this and it works for me.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because it comes somewhat organically from how I would do this, but I'm still adjusting to match what my audience is reacting to. Because a pitch only works if it lands, to a certain extent.

[DongWon] And it's still an expression of you. Right? When you're doing karaoke, you're making that song yours in some way, finding some way to add you, but you're doing it in a context where people can still easily understand what's happening and what the name is. It's recognizable. I know that this is science fiction. I know that this is fantasy. But also, this is coming from a person who has a perspective, and that's coming across. If you try to use Howard's pitch of epic fantasy, four panels at a time, it would  fall so flat because the cadence would be wrong, the delivery would be wrong, the type of thing you're doing is wrong. You have to find your own voice in it.


[Mary Robinette] For me, it depends on kind of what we're talking about when we talk about pitching, because I started with pitching puppet shows, and pitching them in person. All cold calls. And so there I was always trying to figure out how does this fill someone's need. And when people ask me which of my books they should read, the first question I ask them is what are you reading now? And then I pick a book that I... That seems most closely aligned with what I'm guessing their taste is. But when I'm doing the novels, like, hello, we're going to send them out to the world, I've found that if I can figure out what a tagline is for it before I start writing the book, that it helps me focus the thing. And I figured that out with Shades of Milk and Honey, which I described as Jane Austen with magic. And it... And every time I needed to make a decision, I would go back to it. It's like, oh, I want an evil overlord, but that's not Jane Austen. So it helped me there. Jane Austen writes Oceans 11 was the one that probably made me... That cemented that...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, this is a very helpful thing to have in the world. The books that I have the hardest time selling and describing are the ones... And, honestly, the one that I have... Had the hardest time writing was Martian Contingency. I did not come up with any kind of tagline to it before I started writing. I love the book. But I have a hard time telling you what it is about. It's like, we're on Mars! [garbled]

[laughter]

[DongWon] Well, this is, I think, a real thing about as you get deeper into the series, the pitch is this is more of the series.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[DongWon] Right? And I think it makes a lot of sense that, for Martian Contingency, there isn't like a clear  external pitch, because it's not a standalone. Right? It's this is a new book in the series. If you like the series, you're going to like this. The pitch that you have that's really specifically honed is for the series itself. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah, and that is... And that has shifted, also.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Because the available comps have shifted.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I was writing it before Apples for All Mankind came out, so I was describing it as Apollo era science fiction with 100% more women and people of color.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And that I... It begins with an asteroid hitting Washington DC in 1952. Which is not a particularly compressed pitch, but it's one of those things that gives people the sense of, oh, it's going to be hard science fiction, and, oh, I like the idea of destroying Washington DC.

[laughter]

[DongWon] And I think that's also an important thing, that a really pithy pitch can be helpful, that one sentence thing. But also, sometimes you're packing so much information into that, that it's hard to parse.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You know? And so it's okay for it to breathe a little bit. You can have a little bit longer of a pitch, provided it's still engaging. Provided people are still excited and bought in on it. Then you have that space to talk about it a little bit more. And one thing I want to sort of emphasize is, as we're talking about in all of these, it's an iterative process. You're practicing it, you're trying it out, and you're doing all these different things over time to learn how to get better at it. But...I want to talk a little bit more about what that process looks like and how you actually do that. And we'll do that after the break.


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


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[unknown] kimi no game system... [Japanese ad for Lenovo]


[DongWon] Okay. So, before the break, we were talking about, like, how people sort of came to learn how to pitch and a little bit about what that is. I want to start getting more into the nuts and bolts of it now, of how do you actually get good at it. And the  thing I really want to emphasize is we are surrounded by pitches all day long. Every commercial you hear, every movie poster, every book jacket, every... The copy on the back of that book... All of that is trying to convince you to engage with media. Right? You are watching video game trailers, your friends are telling you, hey, you should play this thing. You should go watch this thing. Right? And you are also engaged in this. You're trying to tell your friends about media you consume that you like, of, like, I ate at this restaurant, here's what I like about it. I watched this TV show, here's what I liked about it. Right? That's all pitching. You're already doing this every day to the people around you. All I want you to do is start noticing when you're doing that and noticing when you're consuming it, and start getting intentional about it. Right? Getting a little bit more focused about how do I convince my friend to watch this TV show I love.

[Howard] There are two aspects for me to the pitching skill set. And I just break them out as content and presentation. Content, what are the words that I'm going to say? How do I come up with epic science fiction, four panels at a time? How do I come up with... Is there a formula, a magic? No, there isn't a magic. I do have a formula, but it doesn't always work. And on the other side, how do I bring myself to say that thing in a way that's natural and convincing and conversational if I'm in an environment where that's appropriate versus when an agent or an editor has come up to me and said, pitch me your novel? How do I cold start that?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] I mean, because that's an opportunity that you may get once or twice. And if you're not ready for it, boy, you'll be reliving that moment for your whole life.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] And it's... For me, it has always come down to take whatever content I think works, and practice saying those words until I've memorized them, and then just bank it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.


[DongWon] Well, I think one thing Mary Robinette was saying when you were talking about getting good at this in terms of pitching puppet shows, and when talking to a reader about which book should  he read, is thinking about your audience.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? And remembering that these are conversations first and foremost. Right? So even when an editor is coming to you and is like, pitch me your project, I think it is a conversation that you're trying to get into and making it feel like a personal connection. And what Erin was saying about karaoke, where are you in this, is really, really important for making that really effective as a pitch, and getting them really on board. So, when you're thinking about pitching... That's why I like this model of thinking about, oh, how do you tell your friend about something that you like? And now, you just need to do that for something that you wrote. Which is, I recognize, harder, but still is bringing that same energy to it, that same consideration of who's my audience. Right? What are they excited about? Why would they like this? Am I trying to get them to watch Star Wars? Or watch Andor? Oh, do they like Star Wars? Great, I'm going to go this way. Do they hate Star Wars? Oh, I'm going to be like, oh, you don't need to know a thing about Star Wars to watch Andor. It's about politics and revolution. Right? Like, how you're pitching that thing depends on your audience and knowing that can be really, really helpful to start honing in on how do we put english on that ball.

[Mary Robinette] You just reminded me of something that I was talking to an agent... No, or an editor? I think it was... Anyway, years ago, I didn't have a novel out in the world, and he wanted to know what I was working on, and I was like, oh, you know, this thing, blah blah... And he's like, no, no, no, no. You're telling me the plot.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] I want to know what it's about.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And then he said, Andor, it's about politics and revolution. I'm like, yes. That's often the key is that we try to distill down to plot, but it's really about this is the tone, this is the ride you're going to be on, these are the things you're going to think about.


[DongWon] Yeah. The two... The three things I want to know when I hear a pitch are what  category are we in? Is this a science fiction/fantasy? Is this adult [garbled]? Right? That's like the baseline that I need to know. The second thing I need to know is what's the vibe? Like, what kind of tone are we going for? Is it comedic? Is it super serious? Is it really ethnic? I think getting that. And then the third thing is why did you write this? What's the why of the thing? Why are we talking about this? Why am I spending my time listening to you talk about this? And that has nothing to do with  who your protagonist is, and everything to do with who you are and what you brought to it.


[Dan] The thing that really changed the way I pitch stuff is something Mary Robinette already touched on with Jane Austen, is using comp titles. I remember when I first started pitching I Am Not A Serial Killer, first to agents and editors, and then eventually to audiences when it got published. And I have a pitch. It used to be long and kind of twisty and windy. But I've got it honed pretty much more better now. But my agent... I was with her while she was pitching to someone, and all she said was, it's teenage Dexter in an episode of The X-Files.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Dan] And that changed...

[DongWon] Perfect.

[Dan] The way I think about it. These days, just because time has passed, I usually say, teenage Dexter in an episode of Supernatural. Because more people are likely to have...

[yep]

[Dan] Seen it more recently. But that's one of my favorite games to play now, is how can I find the right things that this person is going to be familiar with that will let them know what is the vibe of this story? What... How does it feel to read this book? And comp titles are a really useful tool for that.

[DongWon] Thank you for the perfect segue, because this is the thing that I also want to talk about in this back half, is the importance of comp titles. Especially when you're talking to Industry professionals, and this is... If you're talking to science fiction/fantasy or publishing professionals, editors and agents, we think in comp titles. because when we are taking a project on... When an  editor's acquiring a book, they have to fill out a thing called a p&l, a  profit and loss statement. When they fill that out, they will say, I think this book will sell X copies. The way they make the argument for why that number of copies is they're saying, it's like these other books. So you've un... At the time of acquisition, when you fill out your p&l, you have to say, this book A is like book B and C. B and C both sold at this level, so reasonably, we can expect that book A will sell at the same level. Do not come to me about the logic of this...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] There are many problems.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And I will say that one of the things about this is that the comp titles that you use in Industry are very...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Different than the ones you can use out of Industry.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, for instance, I am working on a new book now, and I would comp it to you as Becky Chambers'  To Be Taught, If Fortunate meets Ray Nayler's Mountain in the Sea.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] But to someone outside of Industry, I would be like, it's when the Vulcans first arrive on Earth. It's optimistic science fiction. But the Vulcans are aquatic.

[DongWon] Exactly. You don't need to be using the strict form of comps in the way that we do in house. Right? But I am telling you that part so you understand why, when you talk to a publisher, they're always thinking in comp titles. Because it's literally baked into how we do our jobs. Right? The entire job, every part of it, comes down to a comp. What does the cover look like, what is the copy like, what is the... What are we editing for? All that is driven by the comps. And so, a couple of things I want to get across here. One is you can be way looser than your Becky Chambers and Ray Nayler comp. Right? Great comp, by the way.

[Mary Robinette] Oh. Yeah.

[DongWon] [garbled]

[laughter]

[DongWon] You can... You don't have to be that specific, because that's like inside baseball stuff. You can be looser in terms of... What Dan was saying is a great one, what your broader one was... The Vulcan one was also a great one. Right? One thing I want to get across, and the first mistake I see people make when they talk about comp titles is that they think it's about all of A and all of B.

[Mary Robinette] Right.

[DongWon] And it's not that. It's a Venn diagram, it's the overlap space, is defining what your book is. So what you want to do when you're picking your comps is pick two things that do overlap with each other in a way that's narrowly defined enough that I have a clear idea of what it is. Right? I think there's this idea of, like, oh, I shouldn't have Star Wars or Game of Thrones in a comp, because they're too big and I'll seem like I'm getting ahead of myself, I'm being cocky. It's like, no, no, no. That's not the issue there at all. The issue there is that every person on the planet has seen Star Wars, so if you say that, and then you say plus B, whatever the B is, is a subset of Star Wars. Right? Because we're also thinking about  audiences. So, the audience of A plus the audience of B, that defined overlap, is what we're looking for. So if your A is so big that anything else you say will just be a subset, it doesn't really add information for us in a useful way.

[Dan] Another really helpful tool that I think comp titles bring is, similar to what Mary Robinette said about  getting your pitch ready before you start writing...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Dan] I wrote a cyberpunk series in 2014, and I thought to myself, this is great. I love cyberpunk. There's not much out there right now. So maybe I can get some attention. And if I had taken the time to come up with a pitch beforehand, I would have realized that there is no recognizable comp title for cyberpunk for the majority of my YA audience. What am I possibly going to compare this to? Because the cyberpunk video game hadn't come out yet, all the cyberpunk that I read was 20 something years old. There's a handful of anime titles. But I can't rely on every member of my audience being familiar with Bubblegum Crisis or whatever. And so, that book was insanely hard to pitch to people, especially to a YA audience, because they had zero frame of reference for what cyberpunk was.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Dan] And I think that presages a little bit the fact that that series flopped really hard.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] It can be really hard to be the only one out there. Right? And there's a big conversation around this about what does that mean for marginalized authors, what does that mean for innovation in genre, and... That's a separate conversation that I would love to have at other points. I'm just flagging... I see all the problems with comps as a system. It's deeply flawed. But this is how it works right now. The other thing I want to get across when you're thinking about comps is going back to kind of what we were saying about your sort of more narrative pitch, is it's more important to get across category, vibe, and why than it is plot. right? Where I see people get stuck on comps, they're like, oh, but it's kind of like this plot twist that happens in this movie. And I'm like, that's not what I think of when I think of that movie. What I think of is an overall energy and tone from that movie, and a genre category from that movie. So, when you're thinking about your comps, really think about, yeah, vibe and category and sort of like the why of the story.

[Howard] I mentioned there is no formula. But I have a formula. My back cover copy formula is character, conflict, setting, hook. And it's wildly flexible. If I have 20 characters in the book, I can't tell you about 20 of them. I mean, [garbled] 20 of them. I need to pick an interesting  character. I need to pick an interesting conflict. And I need to say it in a way that illuminates the setting and that sets me up at the end to deliver a hook. And, as formulas go, that's a little bit like the bear soup recipe. Step one, kill a live grizzly bear with your bare hands.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Howard] Step 2, make soup.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] The first part is really difficult. What is a hook? How do I illuminate the setting in 10 words while talking about the conflict? I don't know. You're a writer.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] You're good at that. You'll figure that out.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Because once you have this sort of a framework, and you can come up with your own, that sort of a simple framework... You can write half a dozen  pitches...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] For your work that... And you realize, oh, gosh, I've just put a great big flag on this character's character arc and suddenly the book is more interesting to me.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I have a formula that I use when I'm doing... When I have to summarize a thing for a query. But that is... That kind of pitching is so completely different than the kind of pitching that we're talking about here...

[DongWon] Yeah. I think query pitching is... I think you have, like, a really good structure there. I tend to invert it in terms of starting with the hook, but again, that's like a whole...

[Howard] Well, Yeah.

[DongWon] Separate conversation. And the thing that I want to get to, though, about what you were saying there is, so often when I'm giving critiques on a copy or on a pitch, what I'm saying is do twice as much and cut 30% of the words. Right? It's hard to overstate how efficient you have to be. And to be efficient, what I encourage you all to do is start thinking about what's the minimum thing I need to talk about here. Right? Don't tell me about your whole book. Don't tell me about all your characters. Think about the one thing you want me to walk away from, that I'm going to be like, damn, I need to know more. Right? And so, don't tell me about all your characters, don't tell me about all your world, all those things. Think of it as looking through a keyhole and letting me see one thing about your book. So when you're pitching, I encourage you, as much as you can, let go of plot, let go of the grand scope of the thing, and focus on what is so cool and compelling about the thing that you did. And with that, I think we're going to end it there. We could be talking about this for many hours. It's one of my favorite topics. But...

[Mary Robinette] Fortunately, people can pick up the book and read it in depth.

[DongWon] Exactly.


[DongWon] Okay. So I have a little bit of homework for you. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to write three pitches. two, three sentence things, just real quick elevator pitches for your book. I want you to write three of them that take wildly different approaches. Focus on different aspects, Focus one on sort of the world building, focus one on a character, focus one on a plot hook, whatever it is. Just riff in three different approaches. Don't let them overlap. And then practice them on another willing subject. Find a friend, find a partner, find somebody who's... A writing buddy. And just practice it. Say it out loud for them, and watch them as they hear it. Where do they get interested? Where do they get bored? Where do their eyes slide off? And where are they like, ooh, that seems interesting and exciting? Practice and observation are the things that are going to help you get better at this.


[Mary Robinette] This is a reminder that if you want a copy of Now Go Write, a fast-paced introduction to writing that is like Writing Excuses on paper, you can sign up for our newsletter at writingexcuses.com.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.


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Writing Excuses 20.47: Now Go Write - All the Eggs in All the Baskets 


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-47-now-go-write-all-the-eggs-in-all-the-baskets


Key points: A tale of hubris. Branch out, diversify your income stream. Try new markets and genres. RPGs, video games, TV, tie-ins, what are the options? Turn down gigs you don't want to do. Don't let a single revenue stream dominate your income. Redefine yourself as a writer in general, not just an author or novelist. Be flexible, roll with the hits! Don't forget why you wanted to be a writer in the first place.


[Season 20, Episode  47]


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 47]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Now Go Write - All the Eggs in All the Baskets.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[Dan] And this is my episode for our book, Now Go Write. All the Eggs in All the Baskets is a presentation that I do, and now it's a chapter in a book, and now it's an episode. And what this is basically about is the tale of my own hubris. So in 2014, I was on top of the world. I was very successful. I had two successful series, I had a New York Times bestseller. One of my books was being made into a movie. I foolishly assumed that I had made it, and that I would never have to struggle again.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] And it turns out that that's not how it works. So, my next series was a flop, my next standalone was a flop. One of my publishers stopped promoting me entirely. The movie was made and it was very good, but nobody saw it because it got released in like four theaters nationwide. And so the career that I thought was secure had kind of fallen apart overnight. And yet my kids still wanted to eat three times a day, and I still had a mortgage to pay. So I realized that I had kind of foolishly assumed that the level of success I had attained was permanent and that everything would be easy from here on out. And to go back to the episode title, I had put all of my eggs in that one basket of novel writing, and then novel writing kind of dried up for me very quickly. And I had to branch out, and I had to do other things. And so this is the... uh... This is the episode where we tell you about all the other ways to get paid for writing words.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] This is... I'm glad that we're doing this, and that it's in the book, because that's one of the things that I've found as a freelancer that I expect. I'm always diversifying my income stream. But I see people who have a day job who think that they will be able to leave the day job and go write as the only thing that they do, but it's not... It's... It's... They're unprepared, even the ones who are having success are unprepared for the dips and valleys of income streams. And so, yeah, all of the eggs in all of the baskets.

[Dan] Yeah. So my first step in this was to try to figure out what else I could do in the novel writing space. And more or less what that came down to is I had a couple manuscripts, my regular publishers didn't want them, and I decided if I couldn't sell to the markets I was already in that I was going to branch out and try some new markets. And so I took two genres that I'd always wanted to write in before, which were historical and middle grade, and... I guess middle grade isn't a genre so much as a market, but... I figured I would try those. And I wrote one of each. And I said whichever one takes off, we'll take off. The middle grade was a huge, like top three best seller on Audible, and the historical has been read by maybe 15 people.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I was one of the 15 and I really love it.

[Dan] Well, thank you very much. I love it too. But it was clear that I was not finding much success there, so I started writing a lot more middle grade. And that was the first step in kind of clawing my way back up the ladder again. out of that valley of success. And then other than that, a lot of it was just about figuring out, like you said, diversifying income streams. What are some of the ways that I could get paid for words? I started writing for RPG companies, I started writing for video games, I started writing for a TV company... Writing for a TV show. All these different things. Started taking on tie-in work which I had never really done before. So there's a lot of other options. And so rather than just me talk the whole time, what are some other spaces, what are some non-novel places that you all sell words to?

[Mary Robinette] I sometimes sell... I have been fortunate enough... This is not an option that's available to everyone. but, I have been... Sold, like, essays. New York Times, Washington Post. I've been lucky in that regard.

[Dan] That's one I hadn't considered.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then the other thing that I do is my Patreon, which again, I'm at a point in my career where I can do that. But even when I was starting out and the Patreon was very small, the... When your income stream is, like, measured in a lot of money coming randomly from different places, if you're getting 50 bucks, $200, 250... That's money you can use.

[Howard] If you can get pizza money three times a month, you've now paid the grocery bill.

[Mary Robinette] But the trick that I have found is to... My thing has always been that I want to be able to turn down the gigs that I don't want to do. And so when I'm setting myself up for something like a Patreon, making sure that it is geared so that it is stuff that I want to do that does not get in... Or does not get in the way of things that I want to do. So, like, my... I have... I enjoy teaching. So teaching one class a month that's... A lot of it is stuff we've talked about on Writing Excuses. But it's something I enjoy doing, it's not a big time commitment. And it's very scalable. And one of the things  I made a mistake early on was doing things that just weren't scalable. Or they got in the way of the creative work I wanted to be doing.


[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, non-fiction can be a great place to start with that. Right? And so whether that's a Patreon, whether that's a newsletter, and then trying to get things placed... I mean, one thing that's generally true, although this has changed a little bit as the Internet continues to evolve, unfortunately. But outside of genre spaces, the pay per word is usually much higher than what we're used to seeing in terms of, like, what people pay for short fiction in the science fiction/fantasy space. So short fiction writing, essays, long form nonfiction, all those can be really useful. Podcasts is a great option, depending on the kind of thing that you're doing.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] My friend Richard had a... Gosh, $300,000 a year job with a Fortune whatever hundred company, and lost it through mergers and acquisitions and whatever else. And found himself at loose ends, and... But he knew somebody at Forbes. And he started writing basically blog posts for  Forbes, and the amount of money they were willing to pay for someone who knows how to write and knows a couple of things about these businesses and happens to have friends all over that he can call... He was suddenly making a living writing five or 600 words a day.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I forgot about that, that I was... There was a point where we were living in New York. We had moved there thinking that Rob would... My husband was an audio engineer and wine maker because those two jobs make sense together. But we thought he would go into doing film and television when we got to New York. And that was when there was a writer's strike, so there was no production work happening at all. So I was supporting us on my puppetry and writing income in Manhattan.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Which was a thing that I forgot that one of my income streams was essentially blog posts, I was writing for AMC and they were paying me moneys... Money to do, like, top five fantasy films with dragons. Like, the most granular lists you could possibly develop.

[DongWon] One thing I do want to flag as we're having this conversation is we are also in a moment... Pulling back the curtain a little bit in a necessary way, that we are recording this in summer 2025...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right now. The Internet over the last year and media business in general have been in a period of enormous flux and change. Right? Over the past few years, we've really seen the collapse of the online ad model, which has impacted most every content website across the internet, and we're seeing major websites going down, being acquired, losing audience, and having trouble making ends meet. So we're seeing opportunities to publish those kind of blog posts, those kind of news articles going away. At the same time, what we've seen is an incredible growth in sort of indie options in terms of journalist-led newsletters, subscriber-led podcasts. Right? We're moving away from the big, like, here's io9 where you get all of your science fiction/fantasy news to follow this creator or this small collective of creators, what are that Defector or Chloroform Media or something like that. People that you subscribe to and support directly, and that's where you're getting your content. Right? So we've seen a little bit of the shift away from you can use these big media platforms to build your audience and get paid for that to starting to need to build your own brands online and getting direct access that way. Right? So we're seeing this shift in that marketplace happening right now.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I have a question I want to ask you, Dan, but I'm going to ask it after our break.

[Dan] Okay.

[Mary Robinette] So before the...


[Mary Robinette] Besides recording Writing Excuses, I am kind of always trying to level up my game. So I went on Master Class, and I took this class by David Sedaris about storytelling and humor. It was really thought provoking. Like, Howard and I talk about humor all the time on the podcast, but the way David approaches it is so different and also has so many overlaps. He talks about finding your way into the story, how to end with a weight, which was a really interesting thing to think about. Anyway, at Master Class, they have thousands of bite-sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. So if you're a Writing Excuses listener, and you like the 15 minutes long situation, Master Class has that. They have plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, and you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers... hello, friends... chefs, and like a ton of other things. So with Master Class, you can learn from the best to become your best. That sounds hokey, but honestly, I really enjoy taking classes through there. It is one of those places where you get access, and it has this very intimate quality to it. With the David Sedaris class, in particular, I was trying to figure out  how to work some humor into a short story that was...  around some stuff with my mom, honestly. And listening to him talk about that through that class was just very helpful at getting some new angles to think about it. New ways to be a little more honest with my writing. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/excuses. That's 15% off at masterclass.com/excuses. I'm going to say it one more time. Masterclass.com/excuses.


[Howard] The holidays are almost here, and if you still have names on your list, don't panic. Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress-free and joyful, with thousands of exclusive, one of a kind gifts that tell the recipient you really were thinking of them. Uncommon Goods looks for high-quality products that are unique and often handmade or made in the United States. Many are crafted by independent artists and small businesses. I love the shop by feature. I tried shop by interests, selected gardening, and immediately found dozens of perfect gifts, including a cute, slightly spooky, self-watering system that looks like a little IV bag for your potted plant. So don't wait. Make this holiday the year you give something truly unforgettable. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com/writingexcuses. That's uncommongoods.com/writingexcuses for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods, we're all out of the ordinary.


[unknown] kimi no game system... [Japanese ad for Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] Break, DongWon was talking about how the market has shifted a lot. I am curious. Do you think, if you had to make those decisions now about trying Ghost... It was Ghost Station?

[Dan] Ghost Station.

[Mary Robinette] Ghost Station...

[Dan] And Zero G.

[Mary Robinette] Or Zero G. When you were trying to do that, do you think that you would do the same strategy or do you think that you would do some indie publishing?

[Dan] Were I to do it today... Honestly, I would probably not do either one. Because the next thing I was going to talk about that we... Is I became a professional game master. Which is not writing, but it is still storytelling. And I supported my family pretty much solely on that for 2 years. And I gave that up basically when I started working with Brandon's company. But were I back in the situation where I was looking for work again, I would absolutely go back to doing that.

[Mary Robinette] Okay.

[Dan] I have become more amenable to publishing my own stuff over the years. I self-pubbed Ghost Station in print, and Zero G in print. So, I don't think I'm very good at marketing myself as an indie author, is what I have discovered.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] And when you are indie, that's like 60% of your job is self-promotion. And that's not a skill I have developed yet. Although, clearly one I would work on developing if I didn't have a real job now.

[Chuckles]


[Howard] Clear back in... Clear back in 2006, I was at Emerald City Comic Con and there was a panel of webcartoonists including the penny arcade guy and Robert Khoo, who two years previously had basically come up to them and said, "You're not monetizing yourselves well. I can do it. I'm worth $90,000 a year, but I'll work for you for free for a year, and at the end of that year, if you can't pay my salary, it's because I've failed and you won't need to and I'll quit." Penny Arcade went on to launch the Penny Arcade Expo. Which is one of the biggest entertainment Expos...

[Dan] Right now, I think it's two or three of the biggest entertainment Expos.

[Howard] In the world. Exactly. Yeah. It's huge. And this was all Robert Khoo. And even just two years into his run with them, we were hanging on his every word in that panel. And one of the things that he said was never let  any single revenue channel account for more than 40% of what you make. And I hate advice that begins with never, and so turning it on its head, what I would offer is, strive to ensure that you have enough revenue streams that if you lose one of them, you're not losing half of your money.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] And I thought in the early days... Early days. Through 2012, 2014, with Schlock Mercenary, I thought I had accomplished that, because we had ad revenue and we had another kind of ad revenue and another kind of ad revenue, and we had books, and we had merchandise. And all of it was pinned to Schlock Mercenary.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] Well, Schlock Mercenary has now finished its 20-year run, and we're still making money on it. In fact, making most of our money on it. But I'm in a situation very similar to yours, in which, gee,  I thought I had my eggs in a bunch of different baskets. But all of the baskets were in the back of the same truck.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Dan] Yeah.


[Mary Robinette] But what are the other things that... The other lessons that you're kind of wanting us to know that you put into the...

[Dan] Yes. So, the first main lesson is what Howard just articulated. Make sure that you have lots of different revenue streams, that you don't have a majority of it all tied up in one thing. The other one is, I think, more psychological. You have to change the way you think about yourself and the way you think about your career. And this was difficult for me, because I had always, since second grade when I told my parents I was going to write books, I had always thought of myself as an author, I'd always thought of myself as a novelist. And it felt like selling out in a way to start doing other things that were not that. And I really had to redefine myself not as an author exclusively, but as a writer in general. Someone who can write these essays or these nonfiction things or go to RPG companies and video game companies and write for them. Writing tie-in fiction was a very selfish hurdle to get over, because I wanted to write my ideas, I don't want to write your ideas. But if you are going to make a living in this industry, that's a lot of what most professional authors, I think, need to do, to branch out and write words for other people in addition to writing for themselves.

[Erin] Yeah. I think this is something that I struggle with a lot, as somebody who also writes a lot for a lot of different types of people, is that there's  sometimes, I think, a perspective in the industry that, like, certain types of writing don't count as writing. Like, somehow that's not really writing. I remember being on a panel with some folks talking about, like, making money as a writer, and they were all novelists. And so it was basically, like, making money as a novelist was the true... So I was like I'm... All I do is write or teach writing. Like, that is my entire career is writing. But I felt like people were like, well, yeah, but like none of that's from novel writing. And I'm like, that is true. I don't write any novels. But in some ways, I'm like, that's cool. It means I've managed to, while avoiding novel... If I wrote a novel, too, I'd just be rich. No.

[laughter]

[Erin] Not true. But, like, I think it is... There's so much like what is the self... Like, what is the image of what it means to be a writer? And I think, like, divorcing yourself from that is always helpful. Because there are a lot of things that we think of that are being a writer that are not great. That are... That can be harmful. I remember a friend once saying... This is a very weird pivot... That she drank more because she thought that, like, writers would, like, end every day with, like... I don't know, like a cup of whiskey and writing. And then she was like, why am I drinking so much? It's because I came up with this idea...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] When I was 10, and now I have to, like, bury that idea because, like, my liver would appreciate it. And so I think that kind of thing, like, stepping away from that, because at the end of the day, like, you're the only one you have to live with. You know what I mean? Like, you have to pay your bills and the people who may or may not think X about your career are not going to be there with your landlord, like, or your mortgage company.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] Yeah. And the big kind of click over for me was when I stopped thinking of all of these other  writing projects and all of this freelance work as slumming...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] As something I was forced to do and started thinking of it as something that was great, something that was expanding my horizons and my abilities. Today I work as the vice president of Dragon Steel with Brandon Sanderson, who's one of the biggest fantasy authors in the world. People all the time ask how you can get that job. And it's because of this. It's because he came to me, not because I've known him for a long time, but because I had a ton of experience in a ton of different areas that he doesn't have. And he's like, well, we eventually want to do TV shows of the Cosmere stuff. Well, I've worked in TV. We want to make role playing games. I've worked in role-playing games. Every aspect of writing and the writing industry, I have dipped my toe into, which made me a really appealing candidate for this huge entertainment company.

[Howard] You've written ad copy.

[Dan] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. When I did the collaboration with him, he came to me because I had audiobook experience and he did not. There's a thing that Jim Henson says, or said, which is the secret to his success was to hire people who are better than him and let them do their job.


[DongWon] I think one thing that's... I think as we're talking through all of this, when I think about a  writer's career, I think one thing that's really, really important is the writers who make it long-term have a certain kind of flexibility, a certain willingness to roll with the hits. I don't care who you are, your career's not going to go as smoothly as you thought it was going to be. Right? And I don't care how much success you've achieved, you're still going to be hitting roadblocks, you're still going to be running into things that are challenges or frustrating. One book's not going to work as well, or TV deals are going to fall through or whatever it is. Right? Nice problems to have, but those are still problems. Right? So whatever it is, I think a writer's ability to succeed as a published author in the publishing industry, as a professional writer in the world, often comes from your ability to roll with the hits. Right? And then to keep going. The good news is no one gets to take writing away from you as a job. That is a thing that you can always be doing. What that comes down to. though, is how flexible can you be about how you see that job and what opportunities are you willing to pursue to keep furthering that? Right? And so, all of that said, though, I do want to put one note in here about don't forget also why you wanted to be a writer in the first place. Right? And even as you're pursuing these other projects, defend the time that you need to work on the projects that are near and dear to your heart, that are important to how you see yourself as a writer. Right? And so, yes, don't be drinking whiskey every night...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] Let go of, like... Shed the parts of, like, this dream of being a writer that don't serve you, but also don't forget the core of it, of, like, why you're pursuing this art in the first place. And then figure out, okay, I need this amount of time to do that, I can spend this other time writing, pursuing these other things. Doing comics, doing games, writing for TV, whatever it is.

[Erin] I just want to say one quick thing, which is that I think part of what that does is open you up to Kismet. Because I think that...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] Sometimes you forget some of the things that you used to write or some of the things you used to do. Like, I've taken work doing script writing, and when I was in college, I wanted to write for soap operas. Like, because I love them as an art form. And so, like, I wanted to be a script writer, but I forgot. Like, sometimes you get really focused on one particular type of writing because it's the type you're doing. And you forget that, like, each project to me is. like, what can I learn from this? If I don't think I can take something interesting away from it... And sometimes it's like I'm interested in still feeding myself. But a lot of times, it's what can I take that's inter... Like, that's interesting that I can learn, and I will sometimes be surprised like you were saying, Dan, that, like, later somebody will look at you having done something, like this is really valuable experience in a way that you could never have anticipated when you did it. But the thing that you learned still stays with you and then you can end up using it in the world once you're out there doing other projects.

[Dan] Yeah. I know we're going kind of long. I want to make one final point before the homework. As Howard mentioned, I've written a lot of ad copy. Before I broke in as an author, I spent 8 years in advertising and marketing. And so I freelanced as a website writer. It can still take a long time to break in. Like, some of what we're talking about sounds very pie in the sky, like, I didn't have a career, so I started writing for TV. Like, that's... It's not that easy. You have to put in the work, and a lot of your early writing might be really boring stuff that you don't love. But stick with it. If this is what you really want to do, doing these kinds of add jobs and marketing jobs and website jobs can be a good way to get your foot in the door.


[Dan] Anyway. Here's our homework. I want you to try writing in a genre or a format that you've never tried before. If you have always been writing novels or short stories, kind of classic prose fiction, branch out and try something else. Write something in a script format. Write an episode of a TV show that you love. Write a role-playing game adventure. pick a... Try doing tie-in work. Pick a book series or a video game series that you love and write a short story using those characters and set in that universe. Do something that you've never done before, and see how it feels.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses, now go write. 

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Writing Excuses 20.46:  Now Go Write - Break All The Rules ( part 2)

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-46-now-go-write-break-all-the-rules-part-2


Key points: Show, don't tell? Or not? Compress or expand. Using telling to establish important points. Systemless magic? ACES: Access, Causality, Ease, Strangeness. 


[Season 20, Episode 46]


[unknown] Your gaming setup should flex as hard as you do. Lenovo, the world's number one gaming brand, delivers devices that are powerful, whisper quiet, and engineered for victory. This setup totally changed how I play. Featuring top tier GPU, ultra responsive displays, and advanced cooling systems, Lenovo supports every lifestyle and play style. So shop now at lenovo.com/gaming and check out Lenovo gaming PCs. [singing: Lenovo, Lenovo]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 46]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses, now go Write - break all the rules ( part 2).

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] And I'm Erin.


[Erin] Okay. We are back. We have two numbers remaining in my rule breaking thing that I'm doing.

[Mary Robinette] Three.

[Erin] 3. Okay. telling instead of showing. So, this is, like, interestingly, I think, show don't tell, became very popular and then very, like, unpopular, and is now maybe resurging. I don't know how you feel about... Do you think people still tell people show don't tell, or has that fallen out of favor in [many theaters]?

[Mary Robinette] I see it...

[DongWon] [garbled] hear it all the time.

[Mary Robinette] They do.

[Erin] Okay.

[Mary Robinette] They do. So part of the thing that drives me crazy about show don't tell is that it's not a real quote, people quote it as if it's Chekhov and he didn't actually ever say it. The closest we get... What we have is actually a summary of someone else's interpretation of a letter that he wrote to his brother. And if we look at the actual thing he wrote, it's much more limited and focused in application. So, "in descriptions of nature, we must seize on small details, grouping them so that when the reader closes his eyes, he gets a picture." For instance, you'll have a moonlit night. If you write that on the mill dam  a piece of glass from a broken bottle glittered like a bright little star and the black shadow of a dog or a wolf rolled past it like a ball. So what he meant was that you can use those details to create an image. But he's not saying don't tell people about things. Like, that's not what he's saying.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Not even a little bit.

[Erin] And...

[DongWon] Yeah. The advice of show don't tell is the way that like [garbled] faster than anything else. Right? Because the thing is about a novel is that it is mostly the writer telling us stuff.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] That's what writing is, is people telling people other things.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And also, like, that is storytelling.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Most of the time, most of the stories you are told, like, when we're not reading something...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] If your friend is like, Ah can't believe it, like, aliens landed and then zombies attacked me. Like, a lot of what they're... They're just going to be telling you what happened to them.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] They cannot show you the thing has happened.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And the really good storytellers... You could have three friends. Something... The same amazing thing happened to them. And one friend you know would just be much better at conveying it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And, like, one friend would make it really boring even if it was like the biggest thing.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because some people know how to tell in a really interesting way, and some just are working on that.


[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I find that I tend to, instead of saying show don't tell, I tend to talk more about compressing and expanding.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That the things that usually, things that are not emotionally important, we're going to compress so we can get past them faster. And things that are emotionally important, we're going to expand and unpack so we can live them. But there are times when you want to compress something that is a nice emotional and important thing to give more space for the reader to come in. So, Stephen King, I'm going to quote this not quite right, but in On Writing, he talks about you can expand, you can describe the amount of pain someone is in. The white hot pick lancing through his... like, you can describe all of that, or you can say they ripped off his thumbnail. And, like, that immediately makes people...

[DongWon] Ow!

[Mary Robinette] Go... Right! Right, but I just told you that, I didn't des... I didn't show it. Right? But it invites, it leaves space for the reader...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] To come in and bring their own experience there. So there are places where you do, I think, want to compress so that the reader will fill in the gaps.

[DongWon] And it goes back to what we were talking about in the first half of this episode, of the  karaoke singer who just belts the whole time. Right? You need to have that variance. Right? And sometimes, the most effective thing is to zoom really all the way in on the quietest, most nothing moment, the bug crawling across a leaf, because that can be a rich metaphorical image for what's about to happen. And then you'll speed up, and be like, and then he went about his whole day and did X, Y,  and Z, blah blah blah blah blah. Right? And, like, sometimes that zooming in and zooming out is you communicating to your reader the information you want them to have in various ways, and sometimes it's not obvious what needs to be written out in extreme detail, and sometimes it's obvious what needs to be told to them to skip past.

[Mary Robinette] There's... I did the translation for Hildurknutsdotter's The Night Guest. And in it, like, stuff goes wrong, as you might guess from the title, at night. And there's this one chapter, and the entirety of the chapter is, I have decided to stop sleeping.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Right?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That's not good.

[Mary Robinette] No. No. And it's just this cold thing. And then it's just blank pages. And then you turn...

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] And like it's... But again, it's that leaving space, it's the deciding the one detail that I'm going to tell you and then you get to build everything else from that.


[Erin] Yeah. I love all of that. And I think one other thing I think telling can be really good at is establishing rules of the world when you're not sure what people...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] May take away. If there's something that's like a fundamental, like, load-bearing wall of your setting, and you're like, I really think it's important that everyone understand that this is like underwater. Like, I think there are times...

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Erin] When you don't...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] To just be so showy...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That people miss it.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] And then they're like, wait, this was underwater the whole... 

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That changed everything.

[DongWon] Or the opposite happens. The biggest mistake I see show don't tell mis-applied is in the opening of books. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Oh, my goodness.

[DongWon] The first page of a book, where people be like, oh, I'm just going to show them how the rules of this world work. But I'm like, I'm a baby, I don't understand...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Anything yet. I don't know, are we underwater? Are we above water? And you can say a thing that is a metaphorical beautiful image, and I will take it so literally and be like, wait, this isn't an underwater site, that was a metaphor?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You know what I mean? Because I don't know enough yet to not know that that wasn't literal. Right? And so the openings of books is a place to be telling people information, and you want to do it in ways that are engaging and well written and captivating. But you can tell people stuff in interesting ways. Just because it's telling doesn't mean it's inherently boring or doesn't have layered information or doesn't have thematic resonance. You just gotta get better at telling people stuff.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I called this playing coy with the reader.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Where it's like I just want you to figure it out. It's like... I'm like, or we can communicate.

[Erin] If you think about it as a baby, it's great.

[laughter]

[Erin] [garbled] like, well, like how do you walk? Well, you figure it out. Like, you know what I mean?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] There's a certain amount of that you can do, but at a certain point, I think, you do have to like eventually tell the babies a few things once they understand language.

[DongWon] Or at least don't get mad at the baby when it walks into a table...

[laughter]

[DongWon] You didn't tell it about tables. You know what I mean? One area where I think this really comes from is because so much of our narrative language has become visual. Right? We talk about movies... I mean, you'll hear me do it on this podcast constantly, of using movies and TV as reference points for how we tell stories. Right? The problem is that a book is wildly different...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] From a visual medium, because they only know literally what you tell them. They don't know anything other than what words you put on the page versus when you're watching an image on a screen, you're  absorbing a ton of information about what are they wearing, what's the lighting like, all of these different things. All these other departments are coming into play in a way in which you don't necessarily get in a book.

[Mary Robinette] But that actually is one of the places that show don't tell has come from...

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] Is that one of the things that people took it from, like, this whole Chekhov idea was during the transition from silent films to talkies. And the show don't tell was don't use narration cards... Or not silent films to talkies, but to silent films. Don't use narration cards when you can just... When you can show it, because they were like, this is a visual medium, you should be using those tools. We also say, in puppet theater, it's a puppet show, not a puppet tell...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Because...

[DongWon] Yeah, well, Chekhov was a playwright.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was a playwright. But... Yeah.

[Erin] And I do think there are times when, like, you can... I think sometimes the positive of show don't tell is if you're used to visual media and you're trying to, like, write that way, you may forget to include some of the stuff that you take away...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] From... Like, when you see an actor, like with a single tear going down their eye, like, as they watch a sunset, you're filling in a lot... You're telling yourself, like, a little bit of the story. And sometimes that part of the telling gets lost.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But a lot of times, I think, it is about telling really well, and we're... We're running long. But I will say that I think some of the ways that you can tell well are think about the way you pace,...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] The way you're telling things. Watch really good kind of stand-up comedians, who are... Who tell really interesting stories that lead to a joke. They use the rule of threes, they sort of increase in their cadence and pace as they get closer to the big thing that they want you to understand. They  use really interesting words when they're telling you something. I mean, I'm completely... not to judge your friends at home, but if you think about the way your not as good at  telling things friends might tell you something versus your friend who could tell you a trip to the grocery store and make it sound like the most epic adventure ever, it's because they... A lot that they're telling you, they use language that makes it sound very exciting. And so you can use all of those tools as a thing.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And I think also the very fun thing about telling is that it reveals the teller.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So the way somebody tells a story says a lot about the way they see the world.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And when you want to reveal something about your protagonist, having them tell the reader something also tells the reader something...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] About who they are.

[DongWon] Exactly.


[Mary Robinette] Speaking of telling you things, you do your final number...

[Erin] I will do my final number, which is one, and this is one I'm going to... This is my, like, most controversial number. And I'm just going to run through it and tell you, because I have a saying that I believe, that magic doesn't have to have a system, is my last one. I think system magic is fine, but I'm a huge fan of systemless magic, or magic just exists in the world. And the way that I think about this is through a framework that I call ACES. Which is, A is access. So you're thinking about how magic is going to work in your world. A is access, who can do the magic? Can everyone do it? Can only people from the bloodline of Rohisla do it? Which apparently is now a family. Can like...

[Mary Robinette] So that's what the of Rohisla was [garbled]

[Erin] That's right. Like, is it... So who can do it? C is for causality. How direct is you doing anything from you getting what you want? Is it like every time if I clap three times, click my heels three times, and say there's no place like home, I will go home? Or is it like I'm going to wish and like it might not come true exactly the way that I want it to? The more causality you'll find in, like, a D&D style magic where you know exactly what the spell does. But there are... You could have a form of magic, and when it's just like I think it'll do this, but I don't know exactly how to make it happen. E is for ease, how easy is it to do the magic? Do you have to sacrifice your first born child or cut off your toenails every time you need to do magic? Or is it like you could just wake up tomorrow and do it? And then finally strangeness. How weird is what the magic is doing compared to what we are doing? Are you turning people inside out? Are you turning them into a frog? Are you just making them walk slightly faster? Like, how it is. And so thinking about what those things are, and in my essay, I will go into depth about how you can think about those things and use them against each other.

[DongWon] I certainly think Lord of the Rings would be better if Gandalf the White said, I'm casting a level 9 Fireball...

[laughter]

[DongWon] So you consume meta magic sorcery points to make it a maximized style at this range.

[laughter]

[Erin] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I don't disagree with you, because I've read stories where...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And also, I disagree with you only because the people using the magic or existing in that world are usually humans, and humans are pattern seeking creatures, and we will turn everything into a magic system, like the bus. How do you get the bus to come? The spell you cast is you walk away from the bus stop. Like, we will find... Like, don't say that thing out loud. Like, we will systematize things that do not have systems.

[DongWon] But I think superstition is still resistant to systemization. Right? Like, people have ideas of what works and doesn't versus what the narrator is telling us works and doesn't work. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Because, like, there are also times where I knock on wood and then the bad thing happens anyways.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? Am I going to stop knocking on wood? No. Does that... And so I think in so many ways, making magic not numinous and strange and unpredictable can sometimes... For certain kinds of storytelling, bleed something out of it, and then for other kinds of story, I want to know exactly how my magic works in a really detailed way, in the way that I want to know how the engines work in The Expanse.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? But I don't really care how the engines work in Star Trek. You know what I mean? It's just another tool in your kit.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I think the difference is that in The Expanse, we want to know how the engines work because it is almost always a plot point.

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] And it's never a plot point in Star...

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] Trek?

[DongWon] Star Trek. Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I mean, dilithium crystals. But whatever. Like, we know enough. So... And I think, to quote the founder of this podcast, the Sanderson's law, that the... Oh. I can't... I'm not going to quote him, I'm going to paraphrase him. That the definition of the magic system is proportional to the amount of plot that it carries.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, like, if it's like this thing always happens if you do... If you say Beetlejuice three times, like, we don't need to know why that works, we don't need to know any of those things.

[Erin] Yeah. I think, two things I would say. One is I do think we are pattern seeking creatures. But I also think there are a lot of folk traditions, especially like around, like, ghosts and haunts, where, like, people don't really understand it, nor do they want to. I think there's a feeling that this is beyond human understanding, and attempting to understand it will actually make it bad for you.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And that we should just sort of, like, leave it out there... Like, will the ghost of your great aunt show up? Maybe. And why is she showing up tonight? I don't know. Like...

[DongWon] None of my business.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] None of my business, and I'm not going to ask.

[DongWon, Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] A lot of questions about that. But she's just there.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] But I do think that the role of plot, to me it's more...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Does it solve problems? Or is it part of the problem? And the way I think about that is gravity. So if gravity, like, if you're like,, I can't move because gravity is too heavy, you probably don't need to know, like, how gravity works in order to just understand its effect. But if you controlling gravity is what's going to fix that problem, then you're going to want to understand...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] How it works.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So you can have magic be a problem creator and you just need to understand enough to know, like, oh, no, I said this three times and this person appeared. I guess that's what it does. But what you don't want to have happen, I think, is for the way in which it works to be the solution, but only you the author understand it, it never...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Becomes clear.

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Erin] Either to the characters or for the reader.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So, basically, I think we... I completely agree with you, I just needed to...

[DongWon] Totally. I think we're really on the same page.

[Mary Robinette] I just needed to poke at it a little bit.

[Erin] What?

[Mary Robinette] I know...

[Erin] It's like we're on a podcast together...

[Mary Robinette] I have opinions that are accepted.


[Erin] Speaking of being on a podcast, we are going to go to the homework. And your homework is to pick one of the four things we talked about. So, systemless magic, inactive protagonist, telling versus showing, or passive voice. Take a scene that you've written and rewrite it where this is the thing that you're doing. And see how much it changes.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.



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Writing Excuses 20.45:  Now Go Write - Break All the Rules (Part 1)


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-45-now-go-write-break-all-the-rules-part-1


Key points: Break all the rules. Use passive voice! Does your protagonist have to have agency or do anything at all?


[Season 20, Episode  45]


[Erin] Hey, everybody. This is Erin, and I've got a question for you. What have you learned from Writing Excuses that you use for your own writing? Now, we talk a lot about tools, not rules. Which means there are things that we're going to say that you're going to be like, yes, that is for me. That's the tool I'm going to use in my next project. And there are others that you're going to be like, uh,  I'm going to leave that to the side. And what we want to know is which of the things that we're saying have really worked for you? What's the acronym you're always repeating? What's the plot structure you keep coming back to? What's a piece of advice that has carried you forward, when you've been stuck in your work? Or that you've been able to pass on to another writer who's needed advice or help? However you've used something that you've learned from us, we want to know about it, and we want to share it with the broader community. Every month, we're going to put one of your tips or tricks or tools in the newsletter, so that the rest of the community can hear how you have actually taken something that we've talked about and made it work for you. And I'm personally just really excited to learn about those, because a lot of times, y'all take the things that we say and use them in such ingenious and interesting ways to do such amazing writing that I'm just like chomping at the bit to get in these tools and tips and share them with everybody else. So if you're interested, please go to our show notes, and fill out the form there, and be part of this project and just share with us what you're doing, what you've learned, and how are you using it so that we can share with everybody else. Really excited, again, to get all this in because, honestly, what we say is made real and important and meaningful by what y'all do with it. With that, you're out of excuses. Now go tell us what works for you.


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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 45]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses. Now go write - break all the rules (part 1).

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] And I'm Erin.


[Erin] And I am excited to be talking about one of the sections that I am writing in the Now Go Write craft book, which is Break All the Rules. So I am very excited about writing rules and not following them. Because I like to destroy things, I guess...

[laughter]

[Erin] [garbled] I don't know.

[DongWon] Oppositional, even to yourself.

[Erin] Yeah. Exactly. Like, why? And so what I started doing when I was writing this section is I kept coming up with, like, different rules and how to break them. And they each, like, kind of spun off into their own little mini-essay. And so what I thought I would do for this episode is I have four of them that I want to talk about, and I wanted to sort of throw them out and say like, what do y'all think about this particular rule, when it should be broken, and I'm going to have Mary Robinette roll a virtual die to decide which one we talk about first.

[Mary Robinette] We're starting with number four.

[Erin] We're starting with number four, which is passive voice. So the rule here is do not use passive voice. Can one of you explain what this is, in case somebody missed it in all their writing classes?

[Mary Robinette] So, um, if you can say... It's basically she will be chased by zombies is different than zombies chased her. And zombies chased her is active, she will be... Or she is chased by zombies is passive, and it's supposed to be a distancing thing. That you can pick a more active verb, that you can make it more immediate.

[Erin] Yeah. I often see this as like, don't ever use is. Like, if is exists in your story, beat it to death with the adverbs that you also should be taking out of the story, which we will not be talking about today. But I really think that passive voice can be very, very useful. and a couple of ways that I think of that you can use passive voice to good intent, I'll tell you, tell me what you think, and if you have other ones. So one is by depersonalizing actions on purpose. So, like, she is chased by zombies is a couple things. Like, maybe the point is not who's doing the chasing, but that she is being chased. In the way that police actions are often reported...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] In the news, where it's like, the person, like, was killed by the cops, versus, the cops killed this person.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Shows the attitude of what is important in this case.

[DongWon] The suspect was struck by 17 bullets. Like...

[Erin] Exactly. Which is...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah, where it's like who even shot the bullets?

[DongWon] Yep.

[Erin] Who knows? They were just struck by those bullets. The important thing is that they were stopped and here's how, not who did the stopping.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It shows where the focus of the story is, and if you're trying to show, hey, in this particular story, the focus is on the 17 bullets and the person being ended, not, like, who is doing it, then that's a way to use passive voice. I would say another one is if the who is doing it is a surprise. So I was bitten... By a zombie, is different...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Than a zombie bit me, if you don't know a zombie exists in the story.

[Mary Robinette] Right.

[DongWon] Right.

[Erin] I was bitten by, like, gives you a chance to ramp up into the reveal of the sentence...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Which is the noun. Like, it is like the, oh, you weren't bitten by your dog, you were bitten by a zombie. Holy crap. And so that's another reason to use passive voice.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I mean, I think active voice, in general, or, like, the activity level of The Voice is a dial. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And you could be Spinal Tap and say this always has to be at 11, or you can crank it down sometimes. And, like, you can deliberately slow things down and deliberately add a little padding in there. And sometimes those extra words will slow your reader's pace down when you want them to slow down a little bit and be a little bit more abstract and then ramp it up again later as things pick up for whatever reason. Right? And so I think being able to use the passive voice is just another tool in your kit. Right? Not to be too on the point, but tools, not rules. This is a tool that you can use. Do people overuse it when they're first learning to write? Probably.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] But...

[Mary Robinette] It's also a tool, like, you can also use it to do some really creepy...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Things. Like, if you want your character to be a prisoner in their own body. So... The door was opened by her own hand...

[Erin] Oooh!

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. But she has no control over that. That can be, like, ugh!

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah. And I think also, to, like super agree about the dial, it's like if you ever go out, not to use karaoke for everything...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And hear somebody who is like a great belter, they have a very strong voice...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But if they just belt the entire song at the exact same level, at a certain point...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You will tune it out. Like, you're just like, at first, you'll be like, oh, exciting that you can do that, and then you'll be like, oh my gosh, like, again? And so I think that sometimes you see people use so much activity that it just becomes like Jane ran up the hill, Jane grabbed the bucket, like, everything becomes kind of same-y. And I think another thing that passive voice can do is to provide, like, a frame or a bed for the activity that is happening. The thing around it that makes the more active voice sentence stand out. Because it is the one that is doing it differently. It is belting out of a slow, calmer verse that brings all of this attention to...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Why have you become loud at this moment?

[DongWon] It can give us what we think of in film as an establishing shot. You know what I mean? Like, a broader framework of the action, and then we zoom into the more active thing that's happening. She was chased by a horde of zombies. she reached for the gun. You know what I mean?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And the difference between those two things lets us zoom out and zoom in in a way that I think is really, really useful. And it's just a great tool in your kit.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Exactly. The last thing I'll say about this one... Sorry, I didn't mean to... Ah, is to like I think things like weather, time...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Setting... I mean, yes, the sun can beat down upon you, and, like, the wind can beat you down or buffet you, but, like, sometimes, like, the setting is just existing.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It's not actively opposing you. It is merely the thing that you are moving through. And it is nice to just kind of give it a bit more of a... It is passively there and doing things and you are doing things in the setting, as opposed to the setting is doing things to you.

[DongWon] Sometimes the wind was blowing through the trees is a better sentence than the wind blew through the trees.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? Sometimes you want that extra little bit of softness there.

[Erin] Yeah. And the feeling of ongoingness...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, the wind was blowing through the trees sounds like something that's happening over time, whereas the wind blew through the trees seems like it just started.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And it is a new action that you have to pay attention to right in this moment.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.


[Erin] Okay, another number.

[Mary Robinette] Two.

[Erin] Two. This is very similar in some ways. The inactive protagonist.

[Mary Robinette] Ah!

[Erin] Does your protagonist have to have agency or do anything at all? Does your... Answer the question... Does your protagonist have to have agency or do anything at all?

[Mary Robinette] So I've been thinking about this a lot, and I don't think that your protagonist does have to have agency or do anything at all. But I do think that it's going to be a more interesting story if they have an interior life, and are to some degree aware of their lack of agency.

[Erin] Yeah. I think that they have to do something, but the something can be internal.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Not externally focused. So, a protagonist who survives... If you think about it, a lot of horror  movies are about survival. Sometimes that survival is active, like, I grabbed the knife and threw it at the zombie horde. But sometimes it's just like I waited, I listened, like... Which are actions, but they're very like... They're not actions of agency. They're actions of reaction. I'm trying to figure out what the threat is and how to deal with it.

[DongWon] I mean, ironically, we see this a lot in video games, actually, of a protagonist who's very passive. And very reactive to the situation around them, and then the active choices are being made by the side characters, the companion characters, NPCs, things like that, in part because they don't want to put too much on the perspective of the player. And so... It's sort of why we often see fan art or fan stories about side characters more than the main character. You think about like Mass Effect or Dragon Age fandoms. These are all obsessed with those side characters and less interested in the main characters. The main characters just reacting to whatever is going on. And we see this a lot in anything that has an audience surrogate kind of character. A lot of, weirdly, superhero movies fall into this model, too. Where a lot of times the main character is kind of inactive for a lot of it, and is responding to the things happening around them as the world acts crazier and crazier. But the big choices are being made by the villain, the big choices are being made by companions with them.

[Erin] Yeah. And that can create such an exciting feeling of tension, because often in our own lives, we don't have as much agency as...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] We wish we did over the broader events happening around us. And so we can really identify... I think that's why it works for an audience surrogate.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] If the character has really strong agency, we maybe don't feel as much like we identify with that character,  more as we enjoy them. But we don't feel like that could be me. Because if aliens were attacking my town, I also would be hiding  out in my closet.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, yeah.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And not necessarily, like, fighting them tooth and nail, scrapping right there.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. It is one of those things where... like, I just finished a short story where the main character was a literal inanimate object.

[Erin] Oooh!

[Mary Robinette] And so there is no action that the character can take. Because it does not have movement. But it has all of the tension, because it's... Because it can't react. So, like, aliens coming in and you need to hide... You're not going to go out and fight the aliens? Yeah. Yeah, that's going to be a really tense thing because at any moment, they could come, and you still have no agency there, because they're aliens from another world.

[DongWon] Yeah. I would argue that the picaresque is an entire genre based on having a very inactive protagonist.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I mean, they're active in that they go from point A to point B, but they're not the ones who are inspiring the events when they arrive at that place. They're observing it and reacting to it. So, something like Confederacy of Dunces or something like that is... He's not actively making any real choices in his life. I mean, Ulysses, kind of the same... The Joyce's Ulysses kind of the same thing, of... I mean, kind of arguably, the original Ulysses, too. Anyways. But mostly that these characters are just wandering around and stuff is happening around them and they're observing it without really having a lot of influence on the outcome. And, I mean, these are some brilliant works of literature. They're very specific. They may not be for everyone. But there's absolutely space for a story in which your protagonist is kind of in the pocket.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. But I think what Erin said about the... That they are still doing something...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] Even if it's only an interior...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] And that's evaluating or reacting...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Or having an emotion.

[Erin] And often, like you said with video games, like, side characters will fill that role, like... Because something is changing, usually, in a story. So who is changing it? Either it is something that naturally changes, like the seasons. It is something that a character is changing, but it doesn't necessarily have to be your character. So I think I would say if you want to  have a more inactive protagonist, figure out where is the activity, where is the change coming from? Is it the world? Is it the other characters in the world? And then, how is your protagonist either a reflection, a survival of, a reaction to those active changes. And now it is time for us to take an action, and that is to go to break.


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


[Mary Robinette] So when Erin says take a break, what we actually mean is, it's time for homework. When we originally recorded this, it was going to be one episode, but we've decided to split it into two. So your homework for this episode is to write down some of the rules you think you follow most rigidly in your own writing. Like, are you a big fan of show, don't tell? Do you think that you should cut all words that end with ly? But take one of these rules and begin to think about ways you can challenge the rule, you can break it, you can soften it in some way. What happens if you invert it? So, that's your homework.


[Mary Robinette] You're out of excuses. Now go write.


 
mbarker: (Burp)
[personal profile] mbarker
 Writing Excuses 20.44: Now go Write -  How to Handle Relationships 

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-44-now-go-write-how-to-handle-relationships


Key Points: Kowal relationship axes: mind, money, morals, manners, monogamy/model, and mirth. Aspects of self: Ability, role, relationship, and status. tools of a healthy relationship. Communication, compromise, and commitment.


[Season 20, Episode  44]


[Erin] Hey, everybody. This is Erin, and I've got a question for you. What have you learned from Writing Excuses that you use for your own writing? Now, we talk a lot about tools, not rules. Which means there are things that we're going to say that you're going to be like, yes, that is for me. That's the tool I'm going to use in my next project. And there are others that you're going to be like, uh,  I'm going to leave that to the side. And what we want to know is which of the things that we're saying have really worked for you? What's the acronym you're always repeating? What's the plot structure you keep coming back to? What's a piece of advice that has carried you forward, when you've been stuck in your work? Or that you've been able to pass on to another writer who's needed advice or help? However you've used something that you've learned from us, we want to know about it, and we want to share it with the broader community. Every month, we're going to put one of your tips or tricks or tools in the newsletter, so that the rest of the community can hear how you have actually taken something that we've talked about and made it work for you. And I'm personally just really excited to learn about those, because a lot of times, y'all take the things that we say and use them in such ingenious and interesting ways to do such amazing writing that I'm just like chomping at the bit to get in these tools and tips and share them with everybody else. So if you're interested, please go to our show notes, and fill out the form there, and be part of this project and just share with us what you're doing, what you've learned, and how are you using it so that we can share with everybody else. Really excited, again, to get all this in because, honestly, what we say is made real and important and meaningful by what y'all do with it. With that, you're out of excuses. Now go tell us what works for you.


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode  44]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon]  Now go write - how to handle relationships.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Erin] And I'm Erin.


[Mary Robinette] And we have an exciting announcement. Writing Excuses is going to be publishing a book. It's called Now Go Write. It's all of us talking about the things that we have been talking about on the podcast for the past 20 seasons, but in a handy paper formula... Formula? [garbled] format. Formulation...

[DongWon] A formula format.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] So that you don't have to listen to us doing things like that.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Because the book will be copy edited, unlike the podcast.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] So, to give you a teaser of that, we are each going to be sharing with you one of the topics that we have written a chapter for the book. We're going to start with me. And I'm going to be talking about how to handle relationships. So. This is based on this whole conversation that I had with my mother-in-law, honestly. But one of the things that you see repeatedly in all sorts of media are relationships that are built around the characters, like, fighting with each other, the whole will they want this, where they have a good relationship, and then they have to break up for plot reasons. It's deeply annoying. But once you have characters, they have to interact with each other, whether it's a romantic relationship or friend relationship. So, this is some tools to look at how to make that believable and also a source of momentum. So, I mentioned my mother-in-law. She has this thing that I call the Kowal relationship axes...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Which is dating advice she gave my husband. He modified it, and I modified it a little bit more. The theory is relationships exist on multiple axes, and the more closely aligned you are on these axes, the more you'll get along. So these axes are mind, money, morals, manners, monogamy, and mirth. Don't worry, those are going to go in the liner notes, and also, there's a handy chart that will be in the book. But. mind is both people have the same level of intelligence. Money, they have similar attitudes about money. Morals, the same kind of sense of right and wrong. Manners, the same idea of what is polite. This is also,  by the way, sometimes you know people who are assholes online, but you meet them in person and they seem charming, because their manners are aligned with yours, but their morals are deeply messed up. Monogamy is not actually... My husband just needed them to be all m's. The original one was hot, burning kisses, from my mother-in-law.

[awww... mmmm....]

[Mary Robinette] There you go.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] But the idea is basically that you have the same idea of what the relationship is.

[DongWon] Right.

[Mary Robinette] Like, you've met someone, and they think you are BFF, and you are, like, we have met at the water cooler. And it's really uncomfortable.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And then mirth, you find the same things funny. So, now, any of those axes where you are out of alignment is going to be where your source of conflict is. So, for instance, my husband and I are closely aligned on all of those, but we're a little bit out of alignment on money. We both agree about what money is for, but in the Aesop's fable, I am the grasshopper, he is the ant. And then the other place we're a little bit out of alignment is manners, because he is from Hawaii and I am from Tennessee. Those are not the same.

[DongWon] Yeah. Just a little different.

[Mary Robinette] Just a tiny bit different. So if we have outside pressures pushing on us, those are the places where our conflicts will show. So when you're creating characters that you want to get along, you try to keep them as closely aligned as possible. And when you want them to disagree, like be in wild conflict, then you can move those things wildly out of alignment. So, those are the Kowal relationship axes. I have two other tools that I want to toss at people, but I thought we would talk about these before we move on to the others.

[DongWon] It's impossible to not start immediately mapping every person in my life onto those [garbled]

[Mary Robinette] Uhuh.

[DongWon] Of, like, all of my friends, my partner, my like relationship to other family members. I'm like, oh, where are we aligned? Where is the misalignment coming in?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. I was like, and next, Writing Excuses will create a dating app...

[laughter]

[Erin] Where you could align yourself, and it'll be called, Now Go Date. No, just kidding.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But, it did make me think, like, where you might pull out of alignment could also be an interesting, like, thematic thing with a story. Like, you could say, like, in this story, I really want everyone to have really different morals, but be aligned on manners...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] To talk about, like... That's an observation I want to make about society. Or I really want to have a money thing, because I want to explore how capitalism affects the way that our relationships are.

[DongWon] Right.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] And so that could be really fun.

[DongWon] Well, one thing that always strikes me is how much like Regency Era romances are much more about money than contemporary romances.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Where it could be almost like inappropriate to make it about that in a certain way. But, like, what someone's income is is so important in that era for, like, women trying to find their romantic match.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah, and it was considered, like, kind of understandable if you prioritized money.

[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, if she's like, oh, he didn't marry me because he found this woman worth 10,000  pounds a year, and everyone's like, well, I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like people...

[DongWon] And the scandal is taking the monogamy match.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Or the morals and mind match...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Over the money match.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right. You can see that in, like, Jane Eyre and things like that. And it makes those so rich and responsive to the thematic elements of those books.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And one of the other things that's interesting also is that these are all the starting states. And for the most part, people stay more or less aligned, but there are things that you can push out of alignment during... Over the course of the story. So, like, when someone comes into a big inheritance. Or if someone is in an accident and they have some brain damage. Sometimes people don't respond well to that. If someone has a moral awakening and they're like... If they become woke...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And they realize, oh, I am...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Now out of alignment with people that I thought were my friends, but I can't... I think some of us have had that reaction to some books. So these are things that you can push around also during the course of the book to introduce tension, even if you don't start there. And you can also bring them more closely in alignment where... And it's like, oh, oh, I was wrong about a thing.

[DongWon] Yeah. Or just change the lens. Like, where you're putting your attention. Where when you first meet somebody, maybe you're not thinking about morals...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] As much. You're focused on the chemistry there, you're focused on, oh, we like find the same things funny. And 3 months into the relationship, you're like, oh, no, we think about how we should treat other people very differently.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And I think, like you were saying about how manners can cover up a difference in moral or mind in interesting ways...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And, going back to Jane Austen with Darcy and Lizzie, they are actually really closely aligned. They are not as far off... She thinks they are significantly farther off on morals. Like morals, they're actually pretty aligned, family is the most important thing. They are out of alignment in terms of manners, because her family is...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] A lot. But that's also where the conflict is between them.

[Erin] That's interesting, because she also thinks that he has bad manners in the less, like, social class way and the more like you just rude kind of way.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] So it's interesting because, in fact, her family is the, like, wow, did you invite them to the party...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Family. But, I mean, while she spends a lot of the book sort of judging his manners...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Within a mannered world.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Exactly. There's an interesting idea in the Regency that manners are an outward expression of our opinion of others. Which is different than etiquette, which is formally codified rules. And so there's a line somewhere in there about how he has manners that are not calculated to please.

[DongWon] Interesting.

[Mary Robinette] And I'm like, yeah, no, he did not want to.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So when we come back from the break, I'm going to introduce you to a couple of other things. I'm going to introduce you to aspects of self, and then how to apply these. Because this tells you how to create conflicts, but it doesn't tell you how to use them.


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[Mary Robinette] Besides recording writing excuses, I am kind of always trying to level up my game. So I went on Master Class, and I took this class by David Sedaris about storytelling and humor. It was really thought provoking. Like, Howard and I talk about humor all the time on the podcast, but the way David approaches it is so different and also has so many overlaps. He talks about finding your way into the story, how to end with a weight, which was a really interesting thing to think about. Anyway, at Master Class, they have thousands of bite-sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. So if you're a Writing Excuses listener, and you like the 15 minutes long situation, Master Class has that. They have plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, and you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers... hello, friends... chefs, and like a ton of other things. So with Master Class, you can learn from the best to become your best. That sounds hokey, but honestly, I really enjoy taking classes through there. It is one of those places where you get access, and it has this very intimate quality to it. With the David Sedaris class, in particular, I was trying to figure out  how to work some humor into a short story that was...  around some stuff with my mom, honestly. And listening to him talk about that through that class was just very helpful at getting some new angles to think about it. New ways to be a little more honest with my writing. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/excuses. That's 15% off at masterclass.com/excuses. I'm going to say it one more time. Masterclass.com/excuses.


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[Mary Robinette] Welcome back from the break. This is one of my favorite topics, honestly, so I'm really glad that I get to do a whole chapter for it. Okay. So. Aspects of self. One of the things that you can do when you are looking at a relationship in a book and how to handle it, is to treat the relationship like a character. So the relationship itself is a character. Which means that that relationship can go on a character arc. That's the kind of thing that you're going to do if you want the character of the relationship to change. Enemies to lovers, that kind of thing. It's also a thing that you can think about if you do not want the relationship to change, if you want it to be stable. So, if you've got... If we think of it as a character, I think that there are four things that, four aspects of self definition for people, not talking about, like, the outward things, but how we self-define. Ability, role, relationship, and status. So, ability is defined by areas of competence, things you can and cannot do. Role is defined by responsibilities, tasks. Relationship is defined by loyalty, and status is defined by power, basically. So the idea is that... Let's say that we have a heist scene. We're doing an ensemble. We've got an ensemble.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] They're stealing the ace [garbled]

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yes. Yes, we have to have the  jewels of Rohisla and the extra exclamation points and apostrophes that go with...

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] That. So. The team is fully committed to each other. They are absolutely, like, we are a team. But one of them identifies as ability. Like, we are a group of thieves because we steal things, I have the ability to crack safes, you have the ability to climb walls, you have the ability to impersonate anybody, we have these abilities. That's... This is how we work. We've got these abilities. And someone else is like, no, we are a team because we're thieves. That is what we do, We steal things. If we didn't have those abilities, then we would find other ways to steal things. And someone else is like, no, no, guys, it's not that, it's about our relationship, we're a family. If we couldn't steal things, we would like open a pizza joint. I love you so much.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] And the last one is like, no, we steal things because that gives us money, and money gives us power, and that's why we do this. And we are a team because we are all the best at that. So they're all fully committed to each other, but if there is friction about whether or not to go on with the heist, that is the place where one person might pop out a little bit from the team. And then you can go back and look at how those arguments manifest by looking at the relationship axes. So. Yeah.

[Erin] Yeah. I was going to say, like, I'm thinking about ways in which each of... Each person might, like, nope out. So, if you're like, it turns out the gem is actually worthless, it's really hard to steal. Like, it actually requires a lot of ability. But it will... We can't sell it for anything. It's just like we're doing it for the fun.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] The person who's into status is like, well, if it's not worth anything, like why would we go through all this, like, trouble to do it? Or if somebody's like, oh, I can't, it's a safe that I would have trouble cracking. The ability person might say no. Or somebody who believes in the role as thieves would say, we still gotta try. Like, we're thieves, we're gonna try to find another way around it. And so I think it's really cool to, like, look at how they might each drop out of the heist.

[DongWon] Well, you can use that to sort of highlight the thematics of the story you're telling. Right? Like, I'm thinking about the second arc of the first season of Andor. The Aldhani Heist, that entire squad, each of the members of that team have different reasons for being there.[garbled] Vela is there for relationship, Cinta is there for ability, Nemik is there for status, because it's all about the cause for him.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right? And the entire arc of the first season of Andor is Andor moving from one role to another role in that breakdown. And so by highlighting the differences between them, you can use that contrast to really emphasize the thematic points you're trying to create.

[Mary Robinette] Exactly. I think that's a great example. And it also... I'm glad you said moves from one role to another, because...

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] That's also a stress point for an individual and for relationships.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] So if they have a sudden status drop or if someone has to shift roles... If they have to add someone to the team and then figure out how they fit in, like, all of these things can cause stress. And it's very grounded stress. It's not the, like, oh, I don't like the way you make coffee, I'm out of here. Sometimes people just, like, make up weird things. You don't pronounce Rohisla with enough emphasis.

[Chuckles]

[Erin][garbled]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I know.

[DongWon] Not to spoil it or over index on Andor, but like the final turn in that arc is a moment where one character says to him, "you're just like me," and he's right and he looks at what that means and can't bear it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] That's what shifts his status, is him seeing that the relationship... Our moral is the same... And then him looking at that and being like, I don't want that to be true anymore. And then that is what kicks him off on his hero's journey from there, and it's just like this incredible moment...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Right at the end of that. So...

[Erin] Oh, God. How Javier of him. My favorite, like, person who in realizing they are the same as the hero is just like, nah...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I can no longer... I can literally not live with myself...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Understanding that like...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] We actually are the same.

[DongWon] Yeah. Exactly.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. All right.

[DongWon] That's the kindest reading of Javier I've heard in a long time.

[laughter]

[Erin] Javier? He's just like us. No he's not.

[DongWon] No he's not. He's definitely not.

[Mary Robinette] I'm just kind of waiting for a chorus to break through.

[laughter]


[Mary Robinette] So the other thing that you can play with is the tools of a healthy relationship. Communication, compromise, and commitment. And unhealthy relationship lacks those things. And this is why the plot line of... If they... That results in readers going, if they would just talk to each other, is so annoying because you know that this is an unhealthy relationship, and it's just continuing to be an unhealthy relationship. So I find that often I can get more tension out of letting my characters talk to each other and having it be an uncomfortable conversation then I can by them not talking to each other. Because just like in the real world, all you're doing is you're avoiding discomfort. And discomfort is where the tension is. The other is just like nah...

[DongWon] I mean, this is a case where you can see the ways in which modeling realism becomes more frustrating as a narrative experience. Right? Because in reality, we know all of our friends who aren't talking to their spouses about the things, that's a huge problem with their relationship, and won't do that for whatever reason. I'm not calling anyone out in particular, I swear to God. But...

[Erin] No, I'm thinking about like every Am I The Asshole post ever...

[laughter]

[Erin] Maybe just asking...

[DongWon] I think most advice columns just boil down to I don't know, why don't you talk about it?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You know what I mean? And this is a pattern that we see in real life everyday, and yet whenever we encounter it in fiction, it's immediately infuriating. You want to just, like, just talk to them and figure it out. You know what I mean?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] In the same way that it's infuriating in my own life, when I'm like, please talk to them, I'm begging you. But fiction is heightened in that way. Right? We want to explore the discomfort. And so I think just letting it be the real thing...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] The realistic thing is a weird trap in this case.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And I think it's also one of those things where you can split the difference. They don't have to immediately say I feel like we have a conflict and let's discuss it. But there comes a point where it is... You've pushed it so far. And I think the thing you said about how it's frustrating when your friends don't talk to each other, that's the thing, is that the reader kind of becomes a friend.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Who... To the characters in the book. Or at least a stalker.

[Chuckles] 

[Mary Robinette] And they want the characters to do...

[DongWon] [garbled] Your friend too. So, yeah.

[Erin] Yeah. I really like the... What I call the forks and spoons conversations. Which is where, like, you're arguing over the dinner placement, but it's really about, like, your feeling about your mother-in-law.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Not yours. But anyone's. Because I think in that case, they are communicating, they're just not doing it... They're not able to live in the discomfort, and so they're doing it like sideways.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] We see this a lot really well done in theater. And it's like, okay, the audience can read what's going on, and eventually sometimes there's a breakthrough where it breaks from we're talking about the fork, like, wait, are we really talking about Jimmy and school, and that's such a great moment because you as an audience member also get to feel clever. You understood what they were talking about...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Before they did, and then when they finally realize it, you're like, oh...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I knew that's what it was really about, and it gives you that feeling of, like, I am as smart as the people in the story that I think we often enjoy.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] There's an incredible moment in the film Hereditary, which I doubt either of you have seen, but it's to me the scariest moment in the film. It's the thing where nothing supernatural is happening, they're having polite conversation on the dinner table, and one character begins to complain about something and Tony Collette, who plays the mom, freaks out and starts screaming at them about like, I'm your mother. It's just an incredible moment, an incredible speech, and the catharsis is finally saying out loud all the subtle [garbled] things that have been happening throughout the movie.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, yeah.

[DongWon] Seeing those forks and spoons conversations for what it feels like an eternity at that point. And so the dam breaking is just an incredible moment of catharsis. But you're right, that has to reinforce my understanding of what's happening here. And because it does, it becomes this beautiful clarifying moment that's also deeply harrowing and traumatizing.

[Mary Robinette] Ah. I love that. I may see if I can work that into the essay.

[Chuckles]


[Mary Robinette] Um. So the kind of last tool that I want to talk to you about is how to handle these in sort of an arc. So I've already talked about you can treat it like a character arc. So the relationship is undergoing change. This is what you have with the meet cute, where they're trying to decide sort of who they are and is this a... Also the sort of thing you see with breakups as well. You can also apply this in using the MICE Quotient, you can apply it in a couple of other ways. You can treat the relationship like a milieu. The story begins when the character enters the relationship and it ends when they exit it, and you are... the whole thing is then about exploring or navigating a relationship. You could treat it like an inquiry story, which means that there are questions about the relationship. This is one of those things where uneven power dynamics, why is this tall dark stranger so brooding? Like, those can be things. You can also think about it, an inquiry, like [divorce?] stories. If you think of the relationship like a dead body...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] How did it die?

[Erin] Ooh!

[DongWon] The cold [open eyes?] of a divorce...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And then event stories. Event stories can be things like... One of the examples that I think of is actually Inigo Montoya's relationship with the six fingered man. That's this big, powerful thing where he's trying to change the status quo. His father was killed, he wants revenge, he wants to change the status quo. So even though they are not... They aren't on screen most of the time together, his role... His performance in that film is very much defined by his relationship with this character and the fact that he wants to kill him. So, you can do all sorts of fun things like that. And then always kind of you have those other tools that you can play with to sort of create nuance to it.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I'm also wondering, like, an event... Cause the event story is like where the thing has come... The meteor is landing on Earth, like, stories where it's like it'll all be fixed on my birthday.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, in a relationship that is, like, not going well, and everyone's like... It's like when the event happens, it will definitely be the thing that, like, changes everything in a good way. Or it's like when your mom arrives. And so it becomes just, like, this impending event that... In some ways, it's about the event, but in some ways it's just about all the things that will lead up to that event.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, reveals...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] About the characters and their relationships with each other.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Exactly.

[DongWon] What I really love about thinking about this way is usually when we talk about something that is not a character being a character, we mean like settings. Like, oh, New York City was like a character in this movie.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Or whatever it is. Right? I love this image of the relationship being a character, because then the stakes are does the relationship survive? Right? Does it live or die? And seeing it as this thing that operates and moves and shifts, and it's kind of its own thing throughout the story, I think is a really useful framework for thinking about pacing and stakes and all the different aspects of the story in a way that I think is really rich and wonderful.

[Mary Robinette] I am so glad that you both liked that.


[future Mary Robinette] Hey. This is time travel Robinette. I am cutting back into the episode to say that when we finished recording this, we decided that model was a better word than monogamy, but we aren't going to re-record the whole episode. It'll just be right when you get the book. So when you tell people about it, mind, money, morals, manners, model, and mirth. And now, past Mary Robinette is going to give you your homework.


[Mary Robinette] So, I'm going to move to our homework. And I'm again going to refer to my mother-in-law.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] So one of the things she said was, to my husband when he was trying to talk to her about like, how do you know, and she said, you know it's the right person when you love them because of their flaws. So what I want you to do is I want you to look at your story and see who your main character loves because of their flaws, and just write a little exploratory scene where the character is exhibiting those flaws and the other character is watching that fondly. And then write a different scene where they're mad at them and the flaws are pissing them off. So, now that you've got that homework, there's one other piece of homework that I have and you're going to get this homework again. If you want to find out when this book is coming out, you need to head over to the website and you need to sign up for the newsletter. Because that is where we're going to let people know when the book is coming out. And when you sign up, there is also a little bonus thing that you get. So, head to writing excuses.com, sign up for the newsletter, and now... You're out of excuses. Now go write.


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Writing Excuses 20.43:  An Interview with Dr. Tara Lepore on Paleontology


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-43-an-interview-with-dr-tara-lepore-on-paleontology


Key points: Paleontology is more than just dinosaurs. Mammal teeth have a neonatal line formed during birth. What is paleontology? Lots of stuff! The study of life on Earth and how it came to be, the evolution of life. Integrative more than boundaries. What do you get tired of answering? Indiana Jones was an archeologist, and Ross from Friends was a paleontologist, but so were others! What can paleontology tell us? It's like a time machine. Deep time! Snowball Earth! For more information, try your local museum or library.


[Season 20, Episode  43]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode  43]


[Erin] This is Writing Excuses.

[Howard]  An interview with Dr. Tara Lepore on paleontology. 

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] I'm Howard.


[Howard] And we're joined by paleontologist and newly minted Doctor Tara Lepore.

[Tara] Hey, everybody. How's it going?

[Howard] We are so excited to have you here. Because we all have so many questions. I'm going to lead with the big one. Are you in the feathers or not feathers camp?

[Chuckles]

[Tara] Oh, you're cutting it deep, right off the bat. Yeah. Full disclosure, the last 5 years of my paleontology work have been on mammals. But, as a velociraptor fan and also reader of many papers on feathers, I'm in the feathers camp. I'm in the... There's a lot of evidence for feathers. But not all dinosaurs probably had feathers. Yeah. So kick it off with the feather stuff. That's what I have to say about that.

[Howard] I gotta say, we're all... I say we are all. I'm a 56-year-old dude, and so my introduction to dinosaurs was kind of... On the one hand was Dinotopia, and on the other hand was Jurassic Park. So we're either going to ride them like horses or they're going to eat us like we are livestock. And... But we all were fascinated by them, we loved them, and the look on your face, for those who are not benefiting from the video feed, tells me paleontology is actually a lot more than just dinosaurs, Howard.

[Tara] Yeah. Although I will say, full disclosure, as a kid, I watched Dino Riders. Which is another show about riding on top of dinosaurs that have lasers attached to their heads.

[Chuckles]

[Tara] So... Big fan, and we could talk about Beast Wars, the Transformers with animals, they're top epic. But there is, Howard, a lot more to do with paleontology than just dinosaurs. I'm happy to talk more about that. And as I alluded to, just a few minutes ago, I've been diving into the world of fossil and modern mammals and mammal evolution. Yeah, so we can zoom way out and talk about all the good stuff.


[Howard] Okay. One of my favorite questions to ask an expert on anything is... And I'm going to tee up mammals... What's the most interesting thing you've learned about paleontological mammals recently?

[Tara] Oh, yeah. So, part of my PhD dissertation research had to do with looking inside mammal teeth. So slicing them up. These were deceased mammals, mostly modern mammals I asked very nicely. And so I was looking at all kinds of modern mammal teeth, looking for evidence of birth, so there's actually like a little line that we can call like a birth certificate, a line called the neonatal line, like a neonate. And it forms in all the teeth that are forming during the birth transition in humans. And some friends of mine, some colleagues, came out with a study looking at not just modern mammals, not just humans, but looking at one of the oldest mammals that has this evidence marker of what we would think of today as a placental mammal birth. So the kind of birth that humans have, with the placenta. And the mammal had this line, this neonatal line, inside its teeth, and it was from just after the end of the age of dinosaurs. Which makes sense, because mammals at that time would have been what we call placental mammals today. There were also examples of marsupials, at least early ones, and monotremes, early ones. But I think it's so cool because we can zoom in inside of teeth and look at the chemistry and the structure inside teeth, we can kind of connect our own history of birth as like human beings to some of the earliest mammals. And I would love to see where that line of work goes, like, looking at the mammals that were around during the time of dinosaurs. So, birth certificates inside our mouths connecting us to all mammals and mammal evolution. I think it's super, super cool.

[Howard] That is... That is I mean...

[Tara] Yes.

[Howard] Fascinating and mind blowing. The idea that we have a... There's a bone structure in our mouths that says, yeah, you didn't come from an egg. You came from a uterus. And you're saying that that shows that placental birth for mammals is 60 to 65 million years old.

[Tara] At least. And then there's a whole boatload of other pieces of evidence that we can look at in the skeleton of mammals and also in some of the genes that have to do with, like, egg yolk and why don't humans have egg yolk, but we have other stuff that's yolk-y or amniotic at least and all these other kind of pieces of evidence that come along with being a mammal. But looking inside the teeth is one really cool way that we can kind of get a better sense of where we came from and also what mammals were doing back in the time of dinosaurs. So I'm super psyched about that kind of stuff.

[Howard] That is so cool.


[Erin] One of the things that I really love about this is... Thinking about, if I said, like, all the information... this is a misstatement of what you said, but like all the information about you is in your teeth. That sounds like something that is very science fictional. You know what I mean? And so what I think is really cool about looking at these, like, these types of scientific studies, are you can extrapolate pieces from those. So even if you aren't  writing about dinosaurs specifically, or ancient mammals, there's something really cool in the way that you're studying it that I could take that piece of information and put it in a story as some really interesting fact that I then build an entire world or species around. And... So I just think that's cool. But also, I just have a question, as somebody who does not know much. I'll be honest. Like, I am the, like, paleontological newbie, I guess, of the group. Which is, like, what then does make something paleontology? Is it about the time period it is, is it about the type of creature? Are there any things where like we will refuse to study bugs? Like, what is it that makes something within your realm?

[Tara] Yeah. Totally, Erin, that's a great question. And it's one that we get a lot  also in the kind of world of outreach and education as paleontologists. So, my training is specifically in what I would call vertebrate paleontology, where I work really specifically on vertebrates. I worked on everything within that from mammals and mammal teeth to dinosaur footprints and trackways to even... And this is a great party conversation starter, but... Dinosaur poop. Droppings, fossils known as coprolites.

[Chuckles]

[Tara] So, really, a lot of stuff can fall within vertebrate paleontology. But to get to your question, paleontology is the study of all life on Earth and how it came to be as we understand it today. So the evolution of life on Earth. It could be involving bacteria, plants, fungi, all kinds of vertebrates, invertebrates, shelled... All kinds of shelled organisms. So there's a ton of stuff within paleontology that really is united by the study of the evolution of life on Earth.


[Howard] It sounds... And I could be too freely mixing of my disciplines here, but it sounds like paleontology without organic chemistry, paleontology without geology, paleontology without astrophysics stops being complete paleontology. Because if you don't know how to tell, for instance, that an asteroid hit the Yucatan Peninsula, then a lot of your fossils don't make sense, and you don't have the whole story. How... How is the wrong way to start that question. Do you guys draw like discreet lines... You. You are a geologist, not a paleontologist. Go to your rock room.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Stay away from my bones.

[Tara] I do have a rock room. No, I wish I did, actually. The program that I came from and the way I was trained throughout different parts of my career is to think of what I do as integrative. I did my PhD in an integrative biology department. And you mentioned geology, and often people will need to learn a lot about geology and rocks, as well as biology and the study of life, to do different kinds of paleontological work. That being said, I'm also a really big kind of supporter of thinking across what we might traditionally call boundaries between different disciplines. I think we really learn a lot when we talk to the people who do organic chemistry or we talk to the people who are studying insects, maybe that are alive today. In my line of work, I did quite a bit of cross talk with people who look at modern mammals and modern mammal birth, because that also helped me understand a little bit more about the landscape of how mammals are born today and what do we know about them and what is their parental kind of care and things like that. Sometimes in our scientific communities, we will have different conferences that can kind of push people into that silo effect, where we'll go to a geological society meeting or a paleontology meeting or vertebrate paleontology over here. But I also think that we have a lot to gain by breaking down those kinds of silos. So, yes, some structure exists, but I think we have a lot more fun and do a lot more interesting things when we have spaces where people can talk together. And not just as scientists, but as people who do all kinds of different types of work. Some of the best people I know in paleontology have come from really wide-ranging backgrounds. I have a really good friend who had an English degree as their first degree. And I really feel like we need to open up more spaces for that kind of stuff. Because it's all about telling stories. Stories about Earth and life and everything that's relevant to us today. So I think we benefit from a wide range of backgrounds.

[Howard] That's... That's amazing. And as writers, we kind of have to be interdisciplinary. As Erin pointed out, oh, now that I know this thing about mammal teeth, I can invent a thing about these alien jaw bones or whatever and use it to inform my story. And Erin doesn't need to be a paleontologist. And I don't need to be an astrophysicist. But we need to know that those disciplines exist, and we need to... Like, the way English steals from other languages, we need to steal from all the other disciplines in order to do the things that we want to do. I think it was Terry Pratchett who said English doesn't borrow from other languages, it follows them down dark alleys and mugs them, and then goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

[laughter]

[Howard] But, yeah, the idea that we don't want these silos. getting an English degree is fine if you just want to know how English works. But if you want to actually write stories about interesting things, you have to learn all the interesting things. And learning all the interesting things brings us to a nice spot to pause.


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[Tara] So, we want to give a shout out to the University of California Museum of Paleontology. Or UCMP. And UCMP is a museum that I just finished up my graduate work at, and it is based at the University of California, Berkeley. And they have an amazing website ucmp.berkeley.edu. And this is a really great one-stop shop if you want to go on there and check out what it's like to be a paleontologist. They also have really great resources on understanding evolution and understanding science, which is really widely accessed by a lot of teachers and other educators, and there are a  number of blog posts that are also written on the UCMP website that were written by grad students, myself included. But I also just want to give a shout out for everybody who shared their really great research through these blog posts so if you click on the UCMP website, you'll find a link for blog posts. And, yeah, I think it's a really great resource in general on that website. Just for people who want to learn more about paleontology.


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[Howard] We're back. Tara, I have a question for you, and it's a scary one. What's the question that you get tired of answering?

[Tara] Oh, man. I'm getting tired just thinking about it.

[Chuckles]

[Tara] So I want to preface all of this with I would never get mad or upset or push somebody away or be like, no, you don't know what you're talking about. But I kind of grit my teeth a little bit when people try to relate what I do as a paleontologist and they say something like, oh, yeah, I really love Indiana Jones too, or, I absolutely can relate to that because of Ross  from Friends. and I feel like we're doing society as a whole a disservice because Indiana Jones, for better or worse, was supposed to be an archaeologist, and I think that's also an important distinction that we can make in our conversation about, like, that difference. and Ross from Friends, I mean if you even watched Friends or know that Ross, the character, was a paleontologist, if that's our only touch point for paleontology, and people are skipping right over, like, I don't know, Ellie Sattler, Ellen Grants, any of the other fictional people from the movies, then I think we're just missing out. And so, yeah, it makes me grit my teeth a little.


[Erin] What... It's funny, that gives me an idea for a question, which is a lot of that's about stories, that we were talking a little bit earlier about how paleontology helps you tell these really interesting stories about the way that the Earth existed in all the... The thing that you said earlier that I'm not going to remember or do credit to. But these other stories have sort of taken the focus, it's like, this is what paleontology is. So a question I have is what are some of the stories about our world, about beings and creatures on it, that paleontology is able to tell in a way that no other field can?

[Tara] Yeah. That's a really good question, because I think paleontology and other ways of looking at the natural world, different kinds of sciences and also social sciences, we unite all  of these ways of thinking. Paleontology as situated in that context gives us like the next best thing to a time machine. And I really think that that's a powerful way that people can not only connect to paleontology as a concept, as a science, but to think about why it matters, and what can paleontology tell us about the story of life on Earth. Which is really our story as human beings. And, of course, there's a whole field too that has to do with human history and human evolution and things like that, related to paleontology. Some might say that there's a lot of overlap, but that would be things like paleoanthropology, for  example, the study of ancient humans. And often those folks will work with people who are more expertise in other types of life besides humans. So, yeah, I think having the ability to look back into what we might call deep time, not just the time frame of human lifespans or human history, but deep time that goes into thousands and millions and even billions of years. Way back before humans were around. I think paleontology is a really cool kind of vector for us to do that. And it's a big reason why I think it also captures a lot of people's imaginations. Like, paleontology can help us learn about what life was like before any people were here.

[Howard] I love the concept... Just the idea, the mental framework that the words deep time create. Just this idea that the stories that we're able to tell from history, the stories we're able to tell from deep history... We have writings that are 5,000 years old or whatever. Those are shallow time. Those are back when the moon was still in basically the same orbit it's in now. One of my favorite deep time stories is, oh, yeah, y'all, the moon was a planet that slammed into Earth and spat back out and there was a whole ring around Earth for a long time. I say a long time, I don't know how long the ring lasted, but Earth was a hot, miserable place for a long time and the moon was really close and it's been moving away. And I love that story. I can't remember which... There was some show I watched where they've gone back in time and someone looked up at the sky and was like, the Moon is too close. Oh, crap.

[Chuckles]


[Howard] We went back further than we were supposed to. Because if I can see that the Moon is bigger, actually bigger, not on the horizon, optical illusion bigger, then we overshot. So, yeah, I love deep time. And I want to re-ask Erin's question, do you have a favorite deep time story? I've already told you, mine's the Moon. Do you have one?

[Tara] Oh, wow. So deep time, thinking about all the things that have happened to and on this planet that I'm aware of, and there are many more that I'm not aware of. My mind immediately goes to how the planet has changed and, Howard, you mentioned how the Moon was formed and Earth was changed. It was a hot molten mass for so many millions and millions of years. I like thinking about how Earth has changed, how it went through a period called Snowball Earth, where at least there's good evidence that for several million years, the Earth was an ice ball planet and not entirely inhospitable to life, but very different from what we would think of it today.

[Howard] Not friendly to sunbathers.

[Chuckles]

[Tara] Exactly. I'm sure there was great snowshoeing. But, yeah... And then my area of thinking about this often comes back to the animals and plants and the interesting kind of creatures that, number one, we have evidence of in the fossil record but, number two, this is sort of like... Not so much my favorite part of deep time, but something I love thinking about is what are the creatures that probably existed but never became fossilized? Or if they did, we haven't found them yet? So I love thinking about the huge diverse array of life on Earth that we know of from the fossil record and how imperfect and incomplete that fossil record is. And it just is such an imaginative and creative thing. Not just as a scientist, which I think can be a really creative endeavor, but as somebody who likes to think about stories and wonder what else was here? So, yeah.  I think that kind of stuff is really cool to think about.


[Erin] Yeah. And I think the... One of the things that I love about that is how many possibilities it opens up. Again, not just for the thing that it is, but for the things that we can imagine. If you think about, okay, I'm  writing a story that's... We're going to go to an ice planet. Finding out that there was a snowball Earth, like, there's actually a thing you could study looking back that could help you create a planet a million years away or in a fantastical landscape that has no human intervention, based on that. So I'm wondering, like, if we wanted to get more of these stories, I mean we could keep you here for hours and we wish we could, but, like, what are some other resources that, like, we could go to in addition to the one you shared at the break? Are there other places to start when we're looking for this kind of information to inspire us to  create interesting stories?

[Tara] Yeah. So I think that there are a whole number of different museums around the country and around the world that are doing really cool work, both online and in person. Trying to share these kinds of stories with the public and maybe with people who aren't always tapped into the, say, paleontology realm or maybe really interested in it, but they don't know where to start. So I think that a really great just general shout out is, if you have a local museum, even if it's really small, try checking them out. And you can also search for, like, what we would call accredited museums through the American Association of Museums, the AAM. So that's just another place where if you're like, I don't know if this museum is telling me the truth or what's going on or what is truth? Ah! Existential crisis. But, yeah, there are a number of really great museums that you can visit, and I'm a big fan of local museums. I got my start in paleontology as a volunteer just going to my local museum, and I think that made a huge impact on my life. And this sounds really old school, but just honestly the library, because a librarian or somebody that you can talk to and say, hey, what resources do you have on this? I really like the idea of just touching base with those kinds of folks. For me, a lot of that was something that I had really the privilege to access through the PhD program and I could talk with people. But I also really want to shout out, like, check out your local library, talk to your local museum. If you don't have a local museum, look for a website of one in the biggest city near you period and uhm yeah. I think that's what I would probably highlight the most.

[Howard] I love librarians. I mean, they're like the original interdisciplinarians because... They're not... They're literally not allowed to put a book on the shelf unless they've read it. So they've read all the books. And this fact that I just made up now...

[laughter]

[Tara][garbled] true?

[laughter]

[Howard] I'm so sorry. I'm a terrible person.

[Tara][garbled] librarians[garbled]

[so many years in solitude]

[Howard] But librarians get asked all of the questions all of the time, and, yeah, they're a brilliant resource. Well, gosh, we could just keep talking, and asking, and talking, and sharing. I love this, but at some point, we have to send everybody home with some homework. Tara? Do you have some homework for our listeners?


[Tara] Yeah. So I would love for the listeners to think about if you have some way of making deep time, this concept of deep time, within the millions and maybe billions of years, relevant to your upcoming or current writing project. So, maybe pick three ways that deep time could be interwoven into what you're currently working on, whether that's a fantasy, with what kind of fossils could have been on that planet, or maybe it's as simple as how deep time and fossils and the Earth are relevant to your memoir. So, yeah, pick three things and see what comes up this next few weeks and enjoy. I hope it's an interesting exercise.


[Howard] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

 
mbarker: (Me typing?)
[personal profile] mbarker

Writing Excuses 20.42:  Erin Roberts' Personal Writing Process


From https://writingexcuses.com/20-42-erin-roberts-personal-writing-process


Key points: A grab bag of random processes? getting work, getting in, getting done, and getting right. Should I take on this project? Saying no, or at least, can we do it later? Spreadsheet of projects! Star ratings. On time, good work, pleasant to work with. Geese monsters. Having a personal life. If you're going to miss a deadline, tell them early. Getting in. Hook yourself, with voice or an idea. Go back and write a key moment in the character's life to find their voice. Talk to your cat, or rubber duck, to test ideas. Get it done. Deadlines can help. Have Microsoft Word read to you. Take a nap or other break!


[Season 20, Episode 42]


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 42]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Erin's personal writing process.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[Erin] And I have been apprehensive about this episode since we decided to do it. Because I feel like my writing process is like a bunch of random practices thrown into a bag and shaken up, and then every so often, I reach in and see what's working for me or what's not. But you may also be like this, and not have a completely organized idea of your writing process. So hopefully, this is helpful. And I have organized it in my head into four categories, because I still like to be slightly organized.

[laughter]

[Erin] Which is... This is all part of my writing process...

[Dan] This is a very organized grab bag.

[Erin] Outline. Which is, getting work, getting in, getting done, and getting right. So those are basically how do I manage my sort of business creative life, how do I start writing, how do I stop writing and turn something in, and how do I live a balanced life. And because I am a game writer, I'm going to let y'all pick which one you want to hear about first.

[DongWon] I just want to say a thing first, which is, this is not me calling you out. But I do think that there is a thing where... I think... I've had a similar conversation with a lot of writers. They'll be like, oh, I don't have a process. I don't know what I'm doing or whatever it is. And then as soon as you're talking to  them, it's like, no, there are these things. You are doing this thing. And I think, one thing that I was excited to sort of talk about this with Erin after she was like I don't have a process, I don't know what you're talking about in this episode, is I think that's how most people feel. I think we're only able to talk about this in a really cogent way right now because we're doing the work that Erin just described, of sitting down and being like, okay, what chaotic things do I do and how do I explain them? And then when you explain it, it looks more cogent and coherent. Right? But I think the process of looking at it is the thing that makes it sound like a thing. I think for a lot of us, it really is instinctual or habitual or whatever it is. So if you're listening to these episodes and being like, well, I don't have a thing like Mary Robinette does, then I think that's totally fine, and you just find it as you go.

[Erin] Absolutely, makes sense.


[Mary Robinette] So since you gave us four things and you said it's like a game, I am rolling a die and it says number one.

[Erin] Okay. Getting work. So that is... Thank you. I love that we gamified it.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] You can listen to this out of order and not miss anything.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] So, getting work. And it's funny, because I think we have an episode coming up that's about the business of writing. As someone who makes a living essentially writing, like, everything I do is writing, which I think is what makes it difficult to think about the writing process. Because I do freelance writing for games, I do my own prose writing, I do script writing, I do video game writing. It's all writing. Even though some of it is for direct cash, like you paid me to write this thing, and some of it is my own work. It all comes from the creative part of my brain. And so it's hard for me sometimes to separate one from the other. But I have to. Because otherwise, I will get lost. So I have a lot of things that I do in order to figure out should I take on a project. How do I manage the projects that I have in front of me? And, like, how do I know what I need to do on any given day? To figure out if I should take on a project, because it is a mistake you can make, I think, in... No matter what you're doing, is to overcommit yourself to things, because it's hard to say no when things seem really cool. But you are better off saying no, or saying even I can't right now, can I get back to you? Or could we do this another time? Or I can't at the moment. Then saying yes and then being like, I haven't slept in a year. And this is not great, I'm now hallucinating things, which is what happens when you don't sleep for too long. So I have...

[Mary Robinette] This is something that you have personal experience with?

[Erin] I don't... I never hallucinate anything. One time in college, I didn't sleep for several days, and thought everything that started with the letter p was very funny for reasons that I don't understand to this day. But... So I use an Airtable because I... Which I've talked about, I think, on the podcast before. Which is basically fancy Excel, and I actually keep, like, a running tab of every project I have, how many words it is, when it's due, including my own personal projects. Like, I think this story is going to be 6,000 words and I'd like to get it done by June 1st or whatever it is. And then I have them all, like, in different categories and with different tags on them. This is also how I track have I gotten paid, have I put this on my taxes, did I sign the contract, because I am my own assistant. And so I have, like, writing time where I'm writing and assistant time where I'm assisting myself to write. And so I keep it all on a big spreadsheet. And when somebody says, do you want to do this project, I look and I say, based on this deadline, do I have enough hours in the day to get this done?

[DongWon] I'm just going to keep roasting you for the fact that Mr. I don't have a project has a custom Airtable...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] To track word count, project deadlines and sequence, and whether you've paid your taxes on it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] This is incredible. This is such a useful framework.

[Erin] It's so messy! If it makes you feel better. My spreadsheet could be better organized.

[Mary Robinette] Oh my God.

[DongWon] I promise you, this is 10,000 times more organized than 95% of writers.

[Mary Robinette] I literally wrote down ask Erin for Airtable.

[laughter]

[I love that... I don't have a process]

[laughter]

[DongWon] I love that you're starting with this, though, because it's such a useful thing to keep in mind. Right? Because I think so many writers when taking on projects aren't keeping an eye on the business side of it. Right? When I say business side of it, I don't even necessarily mean the, like, negotiations or whatever. Right? But in terms of can I get this deliverable to them on the schedule they're asking for? Can I do the word count that they're asking for? And have I been paid for this? Like, just being able to keep an eye on that, like, freelance mindset of how do I slot this into my schedule is really hard and really difficult, and it's really hard to say no to stuff. Right? Like, I go through this all the time with clients who are under contract for the book, but then, like, Star Wars comes knocking. How do you say no? You know what I mean? And the answer is, you say no because you're going to do a bad job on both projects if you say yes. Right? And so I think it's really, really difficult and really hard to learn to say no. But it's also very important. And the other kind of note of caution that I would love to throw in here is there's a thing that I see that, like, I consider the danger zone, which is when you get into that, like, well, what if you... What if we push the deadline by 2 weeks? Could you do it then? And it's like... It's easy to say yes, you're going to want to say yes at that point, but really... You need to be real about the fact that what you need is six more weeks, not two more weeks. Right? And so I think that like trying to fit stuff in too tightly and trying to slot stuff into your process in this really constrained way will lead to a danger zone as well as when considering can I take this project on.


[Howard] Question. Does your spreadsheet track, like, historically how long it took you to do a thing? So that you've got the whole can I take this job, I think it will take this long, and then you circle back and do a post-mortem and say, hey, you know what? I actually was spot on with that guess. It took me exactly 3 weeks. Or, oh, gosh, I underestimated it.

[Erin] So, yes and no. So, yes in the sense that I actually have fields for all of that.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] That includes things like a star rating...

[Mary Robinette] [garbled]

[Erin] For like how I felt about the project...

[Howard] What you're saying is...

[Erin] But I don't...

[Howard] What you're saying is...

[Erin][garbled] Fill them out. I don't fill them out, because I'm not...

[Howard] You've asked the same question I've asked, and the answer is not yet, but I have room for it.

[Erin] I do have room for it.

[Howard] Okay.

[Erin] I'm excited about the star ratings that are, like, how I felt about... Like, How did I feel about the project on three... So there's... Okay. There's a thing with freelancing...

[DongWon] You have multiple star rating categories, or is it just one rating?

[Erin] No, it's a multiple rating. Because there's a...

[laughter]

[Erin] Thing.

[DongWon] You're so disorganized, it's embarrassing.

[laughter]

[DongWon] This is the time you do four episodes, because we're only going to get through this one first step. All right. Continue.

[Mary Robinette][garbled] process.

[Erin] There's a thing in freelancing where they say, like, you can be... There are three things that you should be. On time...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Good with your work, and pleasant to work with. And I also think that's true...

[DongWon] The iron triangle.

[Erin] Of the people you work with. You can do two out of three. If you miss the third one, it probably shouldn't be nice to work with, because that's... If people don't like you, they don't like you.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But at the end, so what I want to do with my star system is, one is, like, how were they to work with, one is how did I feel about my timelines, and how did I feel about the actual strength of my work. So if I felt like I was on time and they were great, but, like, I did a poor job with this because it turns out I'm not great at writing about 18 forms of geese monsters, then in the future, I'll be like, another goose monster project? Maybe not for me. And so that's how I learn, like, the type of work that I like to do, in addition to how much I can do and, like, is this somebody I don't want to return to because they pay slow, they're mean, they yelled at me that time, they sent a goose after me, a physical goose...

[DongWon] That would be a one-star rating for me.

[laughter]

[DongWon] [garbled] to my house, that would be no stars.

[Dan] That's amazing.

[Mary Robinette] On the kind of goose, though, I mean, there's a rare [garbled]

[DongWon] All geese are mean.

[Dan] Yeah.

[DongWon] I think there's also an important lesson embedded in here, though, which is you can have these systems, but also you're only going to use the stuff that is...

[Mary Robinette] Immediately useful.

[DongWon] You're always going to want to put, like, more options in there, but the stuff that's actually useful is the stuff you're going to use. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] If that makes sense. Like, I think it would be really cool to have that data, but clearly, it's also like, oh, I don't have time to think about that. I'll do that later. Right?

[Erin] Exactly. It's like at the end of the year I'll do it, but I don't.


[Dan] I want to circle back to something you said earlier when you were talking about saying no to work. Sometimes you can delay, you can ask to delay and say I'm very interested in this, but I don't have time, can we come back a few months later? Because I've been in this situation, and I know that very often, the should I take this decision is not made on how much time I have, but it's made on how much money I need.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] And if I'm really hard up for money, my dumb kids keep wanting to eat all the time...

[squeak]

[Dan] I am a lot more likely to say yes to stuff, and knowing that you have the freedom to push back a little and say I'm very excited about this, I would love to do it, but can I do it in 6 months is a really smart and important thing to be able to say.

[Erin] Yeah, and I was shocked the first time I asked somebody and they were like, yeah, sure, I don't care, and I'm like, wait, what?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, it feels like they're like the powerful great and magnificent Oz, and then it turns out there's just, like, a person back there who's also dealing with their own deadlines and their own life, and they understand. I think this is something that being a teacher helped with, because when my students want extensions, I'm like, yeah, sure, whatever. Just get it to me in a reasonable time, so that I can do what I need to do. But I just made up this deadline because, like, it made sense for me at the time I made it up. So it's nice to be flexible. And with that, now that we've done three of the four... Just kidding.

[laughter]

[Erin] Go to the break.


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[Erin] Okay. So, I think we covered getting work before the break.

[Mary Robinette] And I've rolled the die again, so now we're on number four.

[Erin] Getting right. Yeah. This is about, like, having a personal life. So the downside of getting work... This is like the underside of that sandwich... Is that it can sometimes be hard to leave your work behind if you are me and leave the house. I think this is... I'm sure there are people who are saying, like, How can you leave your responsibilities behind? I have kids, I have troublesome work, I have a spouse, I have all these things. [I'm] a single old cat lady that they warn you about on the internet. And the good side of that is that I have a lot of time to write, and the bad side of that is that I can only write. And I could, like, never go out. And so I think it's just important to, for myself, think about my gravestone. That's going to sound bad. But...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Like, I like to think on my gravestone will they say she worked a lot...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, she's a really hard worker? And so sometimes I will prioritize a personal experience that I cannot have again.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Especially if it's like a friend who I could see in 3 days, I might say, hey, I really have this deadline. But if someone's coming into town, if I'm at a convention having a really great conversation with someone I will never ever see again, I think it's better to have the life experience than to have the work experience. And sometimes you pay the price for that, or you're up late the next night. But I found that, like, I am a better writer when I interact with humanity.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] When I don't become, like, someone who, like, has no knowledge of the world. Ah, one thing that I was thinking about when we were talking about All the Birds in the Sky, is the idea at the end of the book that the people who are running the magic side to become really good at magic, you have to become really divorced from humanity. Which is why the solution that they come up with to save the world is basically to make all humans hate each other. And it's like I don't want to become that kind of magician.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Like...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It's not worth... Like, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] At that point. And so I think sometimes deadlines can feel so imminent, they can... Everything can feel like it's weighing on you. I often like to say, from a friend of mine who worked in public relations, it's PR, not the ER.

[laughter]

[Erin] Which is like... We're not...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] We're saving lives, but we're not saving lives.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so I think that, like, trying to keep that perspective is something that is really important to me, and that I want other people to do as well.

[DongWon] There will be a lot of things in the book business that will want to make you... Or the writing business generally that wants to make you feel like it is a crisis and it is immediate and urgent. But at the end of the day, there's very little that is actually a thing that needs to be solved this instant.

[Mary Robinette] I will say that one of the things that I've been struck by when listening to you talk about I go out and I do these things is the number of times that I have gone out with you and you have brought work with you to the bar.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Which is also like roasting you a little bit, but also it's... It is a... Sometimes it's both. I know that when I've been on a deadline, sometimes the thing that I've done is either arranged for... When I was building puppets, I'm like, hey, do you want to come over and do crafting while I'm building this thing? And so we can still socialize while that's happening. Or coffee shop dates. We get the socializing done, we both get work done. So sometimes you can actually blend them and do both of them.

[Howard] Douglas Adams said I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they go by.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] And... for 20 years, Schlock Mercenary was never late. Online, every day, new comic strip, for 20 years. That did not mean that I did not miss some deadlines. There were lots of things that I missed deadlines for. And I feel like the knowing that there's a deadline and knowing you have to have a life... It might not be a bad idea for an early career writer to just experience pushing back on a deadline or missing a deadline and discovering, hey, it made a whooshing sound and I lived. But don't pick one that you're going to get fired for.

[Mary Robinette] And warn people that you're going to miss it.

[DongWon] This is the thing. Here's the important thing. If you're going to miss a deadline, tell them early.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Things... If you tell me early that your book is going to be late, I can go and solve all those problems. If you wait until the day the thing is due, and then you tell me it's late, everything else is locked. We've locked the season, the cover's in, blah blah blah in. You know what I mean? And then things get very hard and expensive to move.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And then people are pissed.

[Mary Robinette] And also it messes with the lives of other freelancers...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Because copy editors who have held space in their schedule to copy edit for you now aren't getting paid because your work is late.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] And then when it comes in, their schedule is... So, it's... But if you let people know, everyone can adjust.

[Erin] And I will say that I think people always say this, and it is true. But I think from the internal side, it never happens that way.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] No one thinks I will wait till the last minute to tell people I will be late.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Erin] What happens is you get into a cycle of, like, optimism and shame.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] Where you are... You wake up optimistic that today you will suddenly write 10,000 million words. Like, cause you're like if I just get in the zone, if I just do everything perfectly, it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine, fine, fine. And then as the day goes on, you're like, oh, my God, it was not fine. Things happened. I needed to eat lunch at one point, why did I do it? And then you think, oh, my gosh, I'm so ashamed, I don't want to say I'm failing. Maybe tomorrow I'll fix it, and I'll be the person... I'll be the best million person version of myself. And I think you can get into that cycle until the point that you actually hit the deadline. At which point, then you're sending like really sad emails, being like I don't know, I thought I was going to do it. And it is really hard to give yourself...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Permission to tell people how you are doing along the way, and say, like, hey, I think there might be a problem here. I'm going to try to catch up, but it's possible that there may be a delay. Even if you need to couch it that way so that they understand what's going on and you're not like a black box where you're like I just think... We all want to be the best versions of ourselves. But the idea that, like, you will hit perfection every day just because you have to... It may not happen. And if it does happen, you may not like the way it feels.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I have a spreadsheet that I use when I'm writing to deadline, which is... I know. But the thing that it tells me is whether or not I'm on target to hit the deadline. Because I know for myself that I lose track of time. That I am not a good judge. And so I have created a tool that allows me to externalize that instead of relying on my own impulses. So I can see, oh, you're dropping off. And that helps me do a little bit more early warning.

[Erin] I think there's a great online tool for that as well, I just wanted to say, called Pacer.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, cool.

[Erin] That actually allows you to set like what your goal is and then you can set several ways. You can be like, I like to start strong and then finish, whatever. On this weekend, I actually can't work at all, and it will actually give you how much word count you should do each day.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, my goodness.

[Erin] Based on that system. So I just wanted to throw that out there, just for the fun.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.


[Howard] We've talked about finding work, and we've talked about finding yourself after work, and you beautifully dodged the question of how do you actually work.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So, number two?

[Erin] Yes. Getting in.

[Dan] Can we lightning round these last two?

[Erin] Yes. So now we are going to go so fast. I'm sorry.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] No, I was like [garbled] extra long episode, because this is great.

[Dan] Awesome, let's do it.

[Erin] All right. Getting in, and getting done. So these are kind of two... Two of the same coin. But getting in, for me, something I've learned is I need to hook myself into something in order to be able to write it. Like hooking a fish. I've never gone fishing in my life, but I hear hooks are involved, so I'm going to use that.

[laughter]

[Erin] So, also like save the fish at the end, I guess. But... So, like, if it is a piece of prose, it is usually the hook of voice. If I don't understand the character's voice, it is really difficult for me to write a story. A lot of... I actually don't have that thing that Dan talked about on another episode, about like were the characters running away with you. But I do feel like if I can't feel like I'm listening to the character tell the story or I'm helping them tell the story, then it's just like words and it doesn't have any meaning to it. And so I spend a lot of time just trying to find the hook. Rewriting the first page, rewriting the first page again, trying this other way. So I do a lot of work on the, like, early side of things, trying to get myself hooked in. And at points, I was like this is not... Why am I wasting so much time on this? But it turns out that if I try to push myself past it, then I end up coming back to the beginning, but just like 16 Pages later and being like I hate this whole story.

[DongWon] What I love about this is we talk a lot about trying to hook the reader, and you're talking about how you need to hook yourself first. Right? If you're not excited about it, how can you ask anybody else to be excited about it? So I love that that's a great place to start in terms of, like, how do you find the thing that's exciting to you and get you engaged with it? And then that will tell you what you need to know for down the line, when you are like, okay, now how do I get readers excited?


[Dan] So do you have tricks or writing exercises or something like that to help you find that voice, or find that hook that you love about the story?

[Erin] I think there are two things that I do. One is that I will often go back and write an earlier part, like a big moment in one character's life that doesn't appear on the page of the story. Because it will help me understand them. Your voice is strongest, I think, when you're like at a time of emotional crisis. But in a story, I usually don't start [with] an emotional crisis, because it's like why? There's nowhere to go from there. And so I will write the story where the person is like... If I'm like this person is a kleptomaniac, well, I'm like, well, when did they steal the very first time? And why? This person gets... Has an anger management problem. What's a time they were really, really angry, and like what were they angry about? And a lot of times, that will get me the voice, and then I can take the voice, once I have it, and translate it. I also talk to my cat a lot. This I...

[Mary Robinette] Same.

[Erin] This helps me hook, I think, a little bit more when it comes to game writing and nonfiction, where I'm trying to think of an idea. So when I'm doing game writing, and they're like, okay, write a city. And I'll write up the type of city that I'm writing. I will like bounce ideas off by just saying them out loud. I mean, like, what if it was a city where everyone was inside out? No, that might be confusing. What if it was a city filled with geese? Like, just talk to my cat and, like, try to explain it to her. Because sometimes when you say things out loud, they just don't sound as good as they did in your head. And as opposed to inflicting them on my friends, I will usually first inflict them on my cat. And then maybe a friend. Like, I'll say I'm thinking about doing this idea, if it's not something under NDA, like, and just say it to them. And in the process of saying it, I can tell if it's wrong or it's right.

[Howard] There's this whole debugging method for coders called the rubber duck method.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Which is explain the problem to something inanimate, and you'll probably find the solution.

[DongWon] Honestly, the thing that I do, when I need to rubber duck it, is... Because I'm on the west coast, I'm often up after my friends are. So I will just pick a friend and text them a stream of ideas.

[Howard] You are a bad friend.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] That's... They have to read that.

[DongWon] Then at the end, I'll say ignore all this.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] But they've already read through it. But I also... I do a similar thing. But I will interrogate it on the page. Because if I start talking to Elsie, she will start talking back, and that's not useful.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] That's why I didn't teach my cat to talk.

[Mary Robinette] I know [garbled]

[Erin] I thought about it, but...


[Mary Robinette] So once you've got the hook, do you have to continue to rehook yourself every day that you're working on a project? Or is it really that once you get into it, you're kind of in and going?

[Erin] Once I'm in it, I'm in, because I will read what I have written previously. And that will get me, like, in... Like, I'm like, okay, oh, yes, this is exactly the way this person talks like. It's like talking... It's kind of like when you talk to a friend, and you're like,, this is the way that their speech goes.

[DongWon] Right.

[Erin] And you're like, oh, yes, I'm in it again. And then I can usually hurdle myself forward, headlight writer style for a while until I run into like there is no plot or like something needs to happen. And, like, at that point, a lot of it is just like trying to think of like eight different things that could happen, or... I actually have a lot of table top solo role-playing games that are about creating interesting ideas or like what could possibly happen in the world, and sometimes I use those just as a prompt. And even though I don't keep what I came up with, like... Sometimes even reacting, I mean, like it couldn't be that that, will help me to figure it out. A lot of things I also do to keep myself engaged is whatever the premise was of the story that I found was really interesting, like, this is a world filled with geese, like, I'm like, oh, yes, it is a world filled with geese. What else do geese do? Like, let me go read up on geese. Oh, they honk a lot and chase you. Oh, I don't have a chase scene in this. I should have my character chased by a goose. This is great, like, this will give it something to do. So if I go back to the origin story of my story, like, a lot of times, that's a way to kind of keep me going. And then to kind of get into the third one, the final one, which is get it done. It can be, if you're somebody like me, I like to revise as I go. It's easy to get stuck with, like, the perfect story in the front, like, this is in the front, not party in the back.

[laughter]

[Erin] It's bad. It sounds like[garbled]

[Mary Robinette] Zoom here.

[Erin] Yeah, exactly. It's like a zoom out thing, like, it's great from the waist up [garbled]

[laughter]

[Erin] [garbled] pants. And so, figuring out like how to keep going, and that is where deadlines are helpful.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because sometimes the perfectionism of wanting to get the exact right cadence of one sentence is holding me back from finishing. So having some sort of deadline. This is why I like applying to fellowships. Because fellowships are an artificial deadline that want your work. And it usually has to be recent works. So I'll be like, oh, I would love to go to McDowell, let me see what their deadline is. And I actually put that on my spreadsheet with everything else so that I know what that deadline is and treat it the way I would treat an employer, so that that way I'm finishing my story, like, at a good time. I think the last thing that's a random writing process of mine is having Microsoft Word read my stories to me, because a downside of being a voice-y cadence person is I can talk myself into liking a story more than it should be liked, by, like, doing that spoken word thing where you just make everything sound really deep, but it's not.

[laughter]

[Erin] Not that all spoken word is that way, but we've all been there.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Haven't we?

[Dan] You know that thing about words where they're stupid?

[Mary Robinette] No, it's true. As a narrator, like, one of my jobs is making bad things sound good. And not... Sometimes it's unfortunately true, but I have learned that I can.

[DongWon] Yep

[Howard] There are books that you have not told us about.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Howard] Yeah.

[Erin] Exactly. The Microsoft lady won't do that. She's horrible.

[laughter]

[Erin] And so I think... But she still sounds friendly. She's like friendly, but badly reading your stories.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so like I love to put her on it as I go, like... If I finish a section, I'll go get a snack while I have her read the whole story to me in the background, and hear, like, is there something that I feel like I'm bouncing off of. It could just be that she didn't do a great job, but a lot of times, it's that there's something there...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That isn't quite working. And then I can identify it, and when I get back to my desk, fix it, and then have her read it to me again. If I could get my cat to read my stories to me, that would be ideal, but that has not happened yet.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Teaching cats to read, I think, would be a mistake...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] I think.

[Erin] And now, this episode's gone on forever. So...

[DongWon] I hope we've all enjoyed this stealth announcement for Untitled Goose game 2...

[laughter]


[Erin] Homework, put geese in it. No.

[laughter]

[Erin] That's not the actual homework.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] So feel free.

[Mary Robinette] Thank you for letting us know about how you don't have any process at all.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I feel very reassured about that. Do you have homework?

[Erin] I do have homework. Which is, I think what really helps me in sounding like I have more process than I feel like I have is writing down all the tips and tricks that are things that I do. Oh, the one last one I didn't mention is sometimes you just need to go to sleep.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Erin] It's going to sound weird, but if you're up late... Sometimes it's better to nap for two hours...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And come back to it then attempt to push through, because your brain just shuts down.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Your brain needs a break.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] It's like your brain's like, nah, give me a rest. But I think write down things that you do, things that you are... Like, that have worked for you, any tip or trick that has ever resonated with you. Put them all on a page, and then see, like, is there anything cool about that page? And if nothing else, at least now you have got it all written down somewhere.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go organize your writing process. Maybe.

[Howard] With a spreadsheet.

[Dan] And a goose.

 
mbarker: (BrainUnderRepair)
[personal profile] mbarker
Writing Excuses 20.41: DongWon Song's Personal Writing Process 

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-41-dongwon-songs-personal-writing-process


Key Points: Chaos corner. Fitting writing around a day job. Negative space. Meditative, not focused. Jot notes, free-flowing, baseline thoughts. Then walk away. How do you capture that? Voice memo, text a friend, but if it slips away, let it go. Cultivate boredom. Tap into your sensations. Sit quietly in an empty room. Put the monsters in a box in your notebook. Multiple projects? Prime the pump! This is hard to do, so be generous to yourself.


[Season 20, Episode 41]


[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.


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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 41]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] My own personal writing process.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[DongWon] So, this week, we're continuing our conversation about our individual writing processes and we are now talking about my process. So, welcome to the chaos corner.

[Mary Robinette] I thought mine was the chaos corner.

[laughter]

[DongWon] I think we're going to find that a lot of us are the chaos corner.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I think there are some overlaps with my process and Mary Robinette's, most notably in the it's very irregular. Right? I, as some of you may know, have a day job. That day job is very demanding time wise, it is very unpredictable in terms of when I wake up in the morning, I often don't know what my day's going to look like. I'll have meetings [garbled] but I'll look at my email and be like, oh, this is on fire today. I guess that's my day now. Right? So a lot of time, when I'm going to be busy and what's happening that day is very hard for me to predict ahead of time. So I don't really have scheduled time to work on creative projects. So, for me, I'm really fitting writing around the main thing that I'm doing with my life, which is being a literary agent working with my clients. Right? So I think my process, of everyone here, probably looks the most like working around a day job in terms of not being a full-time professional writer. Right? So, yeah, I mean that's the first thing is I'm trying to fit these things in. But when it comes to process itself, I think where I start to differ from Mary Robinette is I think a lot about the negative space around my writing. Right? So when I sit down to work, I need a very, like, aesthetic, orderly, clean space, low stimulus. So, like, I don't like playing music while I work. I don't like other distractions while I work. I sometimes will work in a coffee shop, but I do find airports and transit... Anything where there's lots of stuff happening to be quite distracting. Right? And so what I kind of need is to be able to... Not necessarily focus... See, I don't think of it as a hyper focus, I think of it as a sort of just like empty space in which it's almost like a more meditative state, rather than a focused state, if that makes sense. To me, there's a distinction between those. And so what I think about it is removing things from the space until I'm at a place where I can actually get my brain to latch onto the things I want it to latch on to. Otherwise, it will find anything else to latch onto in my space around me. Right? So it often starts with me taking a notebook out into my backyard, sitting down in the sun with a cup of coffee, and just jotting down a handful of notes in my true free-flowing mode. I'm not making an outline, I'm not doing any of that, I am just writing down, like, okay, here are the baseline thoughts. If I need to write an essay about this. If I'm doing a piece of world building for a game, if I'm planning a session for a game, if I'm doing a lot of that writing work, a lot of times it is like... Just really start with like simple sentences, what is this essay, what is this piece of the world I'm trying to figure out, what is this character or this plot, things like that. And then just writing down a handful of notes. And then I put that down and walk away from it for a while. Because what I've done is write down the questions so that my brain can chew on it in the background while I go do a bunch of other stuff. Right? A lot of my process is maximizing my unconscious brain's flow so it will solve the problems while I'm not looking at it. And then when I reach for the answers, they'll be there. Right? And so what I'm trying to do is seed it with the information, the questions that I need to ask it. And then walk away and come back. It's almost like Tarot in a weird way. You know what I mean? It's like here's my question. Now I'm not going to look at you for a while, and I'll come back and see what the output is.


[Erin] So... I love that. And it reminds me of people saying, like, when they're in the shower, they'll get, like...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] The great idea, because, like, it's the time in which... I don't know, anything can come to the surface. So if you're letting things happen in the background, how do you make sure that when the answer comes, like, you're ready to capture it? You know what I mean?

[DongWon] Yeah. I'm not always... Every now and again, it will come to me in a quiet moment, like, yeah, in the shower or while I'm on a run or whatever it is, or out on a hike, like. Those are useful moments. So, to capture those, voice memo's really handy. You know what I mean? Just grabbing your phone and being like, here's the crazy idea I had. Or texting a friend. You know what I mean? They're like, hey, I just had this idea, what do you think about this? Right? In part, a lot of what I do is very collaborative. Very rarely am I just working in a vacuum, because a lot of it is writing for games. So, I'll ping one of my players or I'll ping another GM that I work with or something like that and be like, hey, here's stuff I'm thinking about. What do you think about this? So I have that that I can do. And... But a lot of times, if I have the thought in a place where I can't do those things and it goes out of my brain, there's no... I don't regret losing it. If I lost it, it wasn't worth hanging on to. Right? I'm trusting my unconscious brain to do that work. And if it still thought it was a cool idea and it was relevant... A lot of times, when I've gone back to dig those up, I'm like, ugh, that ain't it.

[laughter]

[DongWon] You know what I mean?

[Mary Robinette] Yes, we know.

[DongWon] What feels like genius in the moment, when you wake up from a dream or those kind of things, very rarely holds up under further examination. Right? So a lot of this is about cultivating spaces where I'm not actively engaging with something else. So if I'm going on a walk or a run or something and I bring a podcast, my unconscious isn't going to be doing that work. If I go without headphones and just truly do the chaotic thing, using a word that the kids use that I'm not going to use right now, I'm just going to like walk around without headphones and really let my brain think about the thing. And, like, taking in stimulus, taking in the sunshine and the natural world and looking at birds or whatever, but not actively doing things, that lets my brain sort of start feeding me these answers when I sit down to write.


[Howard] I can't remember who said it, but it was the... Some recent science where someone said it looks like the key to creativity is boredom.

[DongWon] Yes. This is a thing I say all the time to writers, and I say, cultivate boredom. If you're having trouble getting the work done, if you're having trouble coming up with ideas, if you're stuck on something, and this works for me, is become as bored as you possibly can. Sit in your house. Do not play a video game. Do not watch television. Do not read a book. Do not put music on. Sit in your living room and stare at the wall, I swear to God, until you want to claw your skin off. Like until you are itching and furious, and then you sit down at your computer and you will write exactly what you need to write. Right? You need to let your brain rest sometimes. Your brain needs that rest break. This actually all comes from, like, me taking a bunch of cognitive science classes when I was in college is when I started thinking this way, and then over time, I started to, like, putting these into practice in different ways that worked for me. These may sound like hell to a lot of people. But a little bit of torturing yourself by not doing something, I think, can really help activate your brain when you go to sit down and do it.

[Dan] I know... I guarantee that there are people out there listening right now, screaming about the luxury...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Dan] That you have of being bored.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Dan] Of not having kids running around screaming and things like that. But that's not really, I think, the point you're trying to make. You are not exulting over the fact that you have a bunch of free time. What you're really telling us is talking about how to fit these things into...

[DongWon] Yes.

[Dan] The time that you do have.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Dan] Taking a moment here where you happen to have some time to jot down ideas and then let them percolate until the next time you have some time. It's not all about being completely free in an empty room all day for hours.

[DongWon] True. And also, I don't have kids, I don't have pets. Like, my life is quite simplified in a certain way. But also I'm incredibly busy and doing a million things all the time.

[Dan] Yeah.

[DongWon] So it's hard for me to make that time. What I will say is think of this as work time. When I'm talking about this, use your time that you set aside to write to do this. This is work. And I want to, like, make that really clear. You can say I'm taking 2 hours to write and then what you do is walk out of the house without any headphones and without your phone and walk around for an hour and come back. You've done writing work by doing that because you let your brain do that unconscious work. And I think one thing that peo... When people switch to full-time writing, they discover very quickly that they can't write for 8 hours a day, you can only write a certain number of words and then your brain kind of finds its maximum. For some people, that's an insanely high number. For some people, that's only a few hundred words. Either way around, those people are being productive with their writing day, because you're using that rest of the time to process. And what I'm saying is use your writing time where you're not putting words on the page very, very intentionally. And sometimes the intention that you need to bring to it is nothing, negative space, and cultivating that boredom.

[Erin] Yeah, I was also going to say, I think we've gotten very good, or we... By we, I'll say me... At like putting distraction into times of boredom. So, like, the number of people who, like, bring a phone into the bathroom, a time in which you could theoretically just be doing nothing mentally, at least, hopefully, and just, like, in your space. Or waiting in a doctor's office or... Like, there are times in which, like, the world actually kind of forces you to wait and not do other things. But I think nowadays, like, you tend to think oh, that's a time where I'm going to check my email or whatever. I definitely do that. And so I'm... As you were talking, I'm thinking about even if they're just, like, a moment like...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] I'm in the shower for a second, like, not listening to music or letting that be quiet time...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] As opposed to time that I feel like I should be using. Because I think sometimes the productivity trap...

[DongWon] Yep.

[Erin] That can happen is the feeling that you should always be doing something with your time, even if that something is just Doom scrolling.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] And so therefore if you're in the shower, like, shouldn't you also be listening to a podcast or doing this other thing or... Instead of just saying, like, I'm just going to stand still. I think the just stand still in life is something that our lives really push us against.


[Mary Robinette] There's something you said earlier about removing barriers and distractions.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And I actually wrote it down because I'm like oh, yeah. No, that's a very good point. Because there's... There are things where I am the one who has introduced the distraction.

[DongWon] What you were saying last episode about you need to protect your time from yourself. And we're talking about the same thing.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] In many ways. And with that, I would like to go to a break. And when we come back, I'm going to talk about being embodied while you write.


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[DongWon] Welcome back. Yeah. We've been talking about cultivating boredom as part of your writing process, and the ways in which you need to be sort of present in the moment to let your brain sort of do the work of processing. So that creative well is there when you go to sit down and write. Erin was making the point that you can use these very small moments. I mean, when I say get bored, for me, that doesn't take 4 hours.

[laughter]

[DongWon] That takes about 30 seconds before I'm like, what's happening on Instagram.

[Howard][garbled] more seconds than I need.

[DongWon] Yeah. Exactly. I mean, we live in a world that has monetized our attention. Distraction... Every device in your house wants you to pay attention to it and is designed almost maliciously to create that relationship with it. Right? And so resisting that takes a lot of willpower and focus and intention and all of these things I'm talking about. But it is really important to... For you to make that space to work creatively. And I want to talk about that relationship to your physical body. Right? Because in these moments, a lot of times what you can do is tap into sensations to help you get out of that distraction. What am I feeling in my body? What is my breath doing? Where... How does my leg feel sitting on this chair? Right? And sometimes those aren't always the best sensations. Right? A lot of us have bodies that don't cooperate the way that we want them to. But I think even in those moments, connecting with what is my physical presence in this room and in this space can help you access a space that lets your brain sort of have the freedom to roam and wander a little bit. And, like, really, what I'm talking about a lot are meditation practices. Right? What I'm... This is meditation without saying you have to sit there and meditate. Right? But a lot of meditation is just observation. You sit there, you move through your body, you think about what your body is doing, you feel your breath, all of those things. And you just don't chase thoughts as they occur. You let them come. You let them pass. Don't chase them. Don't hang on to them.


[Mary Robinette] Do you do those in the space that you're planning on writing, or is that a separate... Are those two different?

[DongWon] Both. Often, I will start the process in a place where I am not writing. I will leave my office, because my office is a place of incredible distraction. Right? In part it is... The same computer I play video games on. It's the same computer my email lives on. Right? So it's hard for me to have that sense of lack of distraction when I'm sitting in my office chair. So I will go sit in the backyard, I will go for a walk like I mentioned. All of these things can be really helpful for that meditative process. Right? Even going to the gym, even though you're being active and doing things, being that complete psychopath in the corner without headphones on at the gym can be a really great way to access that. Because when you're doing something that active, it is forcing you to be in your body in the way that I'm talking about. And then you're not thinking about your email, you're thinking about oh, God, I have to do another set. Right? And so I think those things can be really, really helpful.

[Dan] I absolutely love what you were saying about how the modern world has monetized our attention. But I want to point out that while there is a new flavor to it, that's been around forever. A quote that I attribute to Renee Descartes, I don't know if it actually is, and I parrot this to my kids all the time, is "All of Mankind's ills stem from our inability to sit quietly in an empty room." And that constant need for distraction has been around forever. And the... I love what you're saying about how to break past that. Because it's one thing for me to just tell my kids this all the time. That doesn't actually help them do it. Right? That doesn't help them find ways to entertain themselves. So taking those principles of meditation, taking those... These kind of mindfulness concepts of being aware of sensory input and what's around you all the time. Those are actual tools you can use to overcome this need for stimuli.

[DongWon] Yeah. And, the thing I want to point out, and... Excellent point, that this has been around forever. Right? This is also very influenced by Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own. Right? Very similar concept of you need that space to write, you need your own space in a way. And protecting that from other demands in your life, including family and work and all these things, which are incredibly difficult to do. I want to flag another aspect of it, though, that kind of ties in with what you're saying, is that to do the thing that I'm talking about, of being truly present in your body and alone with your thoughts, in a room with no other distractions, is very, very scary when you start doing it. It is very, very scary because you will feel the emotions that you feel in a direct and unfiltered way. And that is a hard thing to do unless you have practiced doing it, and unless you have gone through some therapeutic and healing processes.

[Mary Robinette] I'm going to recommend a free resource which is Balance. It's an app. Sorry, I'm telling you to use your phone. But they have a... It's an easy way to go into meditation, and they have a couple of tracks on focus. Which, if you need guidance on learning how to do this, you can start there and then you can... You don't have to keep using it.


[Erin] I do have a question. Like, I love this, but how do you deal with... It reminds me of something Mary Robinette was talking about in the last episode with the idea that like there are things waiting. Like, there are monsters of the things you need to do and the people you need to care about waiting outside your room of calm, and not feeling like a guilt or like starting to associate the time you're taking for yourself...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] As time you're taking away from other things that you should or would be doing?

[DongWon] Before I do this, I trap them. I go out and I put them in a little box, and that box is my notebook. So before doing this, and I do this before I go to bed, actually. You were talking about this when you wake up. For me, this is a pre-bed ritual. When I get... I sit down with my notebook in my office, I close the door for like 5 minutes and I write down all the meetings I have for tomorrow, all the tasks I have to do, here's my... The things that I need to read, here's the emails I need to respond to. I make my to-do list the night before. And that way when I go to sleep, I'm not sitting there turning and thinking about it. And this really helps too with making that space, is I can't go and do the things I'm talking about until I've done the thing first of taking those monsters and writing a little box around them, and then they live there for the moment. They're contained within my notebook, and they will be there when I open my notebook up again to yell at me, but for this particular moment, they're over there. Right? So that's a really excellent question. And that is kind of my strategy for managing it. Which helps with anxiety, which helps with that pressure and all of these things.

[Howard] I love the idea of putting the monsters...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] In the box. That's... I do something very similar. What I wanted to say, though, is that the quote that Dan... About sitting in an empty room. It's Blaise Pascal.

[Dan] There you go.

[Howard] I had to Google it.

[Dan] I had the wrong mathematician.

[Howard] All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. Which, yeah, that's awesome. But the first result I got when I searched was Moliere. You're going to love this. All of the ills of mankind, all the tragic misfortunes which fill the history books, have arisen merely from a lack of skill at dancing.

[laughter]

[DongWon] I find it very appropriate that you went to the comic response to it. Yeah.

[Howard] But the thing... In a room alone, and, if you look at what dance really is...

[Mary Robinette][garbled]

[Howard] It is a mastery of self, a mastery of movement, a mastery of physical interaction with others in a partnership. I don't know that those are the same thing, but they're definitely two sides of the same coin.

[DongWon] I mean, movement is meditation practice. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] This is why yoga is a meditation practice. There are breathing meditation practices. We think of meditation in the Zen Buddhist way, you sit there very quietly with your legs crossed and don't think thoughts. That's a very specific approach. Right? What I believe is taking a shower can be a meditation practice.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Going for a walk, going for a run, going to the gym, dancing. The people I talk to who love to dance or professional dancers I've known all talk about it in the same way that I think of meditation practice as being very effective. It's why I like really hate stuff like Power Yoga, because it's sort of like wow, you guys have wandered off the point here.

[laughter]

[DongWon] In my view, in my view.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] That is... If you get something out of it, great. And if what you're getting out of it is movement and fitness and exercise, fantastic. But... Anyways.


[Dan] I want to ask how your process handles multiple projects. Right now, I have a book that I am outlining, a different book that I am writing, a different book that I'm revising, and an RPG campaign that I run every week.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Dan] When you give yourself this blank space and let your brain just kind of percolate on whatever it needs, is there a way that you assure it's thinking about the right project?

[DongWon] You gotta prime the engine. This is the process I was talking about at the very beginning of this, of you sit down and you write a bunch of just random thoughts about the project that you're working on. Right? And so if you prime the engine with those questions, then the next thing it's going to chew on is those questions. Right? So if I need to work on an essay for the newsletter, a thing I have not done in too long...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] But... If I'm going to sit down or... If I'm working on... Because I'm often running multiple games, too. So what I will do is sit down, write those questions and those thoughts, and then go off and do something. And that sort of helps me sort of focus the unfocus. If that makes sense. It gives it a direction. And I think one thing that people are missing in this process is that intention setting at the beginning of it. And this is intentional boredom, is one way to think about it. Right? And so you need to set that ahead of time, and that's like priming the pump. So, great question.

[Howard] Yeah. If you're accidentally bored, then you might not be ready to exploit...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] The output of the boredom.

[DongWon] That's how you end up chewing on that thing that you said in 6th grade that was embarrassing one time.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah. I'm... One of the things that I'm struck by as we're having these conversations is how different your process is from mine, but how many of... There's some places where I'm like, oh, yeah, I do that. It just looks different when I do it. Like I had a coffee shop that I loved because it was about a 5-minute walk and it was just enough time and I would think about what I was going to write. And so when I got there, I was ready to sit down.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] It was that kind of priming the pump. Sometimes, I will literally write down at the top of the page, here's the mood.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And it's that intention setting. It looks totally different, but I... I'm fascinated by the overlaps.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] You both have an orc problem, and one of you has trained with a sword and the other has trained with hiring mercenaries who have swords...

[laughter]

[Howard] And on that note, there are multiple ways to take care of these orcs.

[DongWon] Yep. Absolutely.

[Mary Robinette] And it all comes down to a sword.


[DongWon] And it all comes down to a sword. The other thing I want to flag here is... I talk about this with great authority over the last 20 minutes or so, but I'm not good at this. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Right.

[DongWon] This is really hard to do.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And I succeed at this maybe one time in 10. Right? I spend a lot of my time being too distracted by the distracting world I live in, by being too delighted by a video game, by wanting to watch a TV show, by wanting to hang out with my partner. There are all these things that like intrude on this time. It is very difficult to make this space. And this kind of goes back to what Dan was saying earlier of, like, all that sounds nice, but look at my life, it's so full and distracting. This is ideal practices I'm talking about. And again, this goes back to last week's episode, Erin, you sort of brought this up in terms of habit versus what I would call practice is be forgiving to yourself when you fail at this. Because you're going to, because it's really hard to do. And I do all the time. Lord knows, I'm behind on every project I've ever worked on. Right? And so I think understanding that this is an optimal version of it, and these are the things that work for me when I'm able to do them. But I'm also saying as you're pursuing these goals of mindfulness and intention and all that, to be really, really generous and kind to yourself throughout this process.


[DongWon] And with that, we're going to end this episode and have a little bit of homework for you. And I think you might be able to anticipate what it is from what I was just saying. But I want you to go sit somewhere. don't bring your phone, don't bring your headphones. Somewhere in your house, go for a walk, whatever the things are that we've been talking about. And really cultivate that boredom. Sit there for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, whatever you have time for. Until you feel that itch of like irritation of doing nothing. And then push it a little bit longer. And then go sit down and write.


[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write. After being bored.



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Writing Excuses 20.40: Mary Robinette Kowal's Personal Writing Process

From writingexcuses.com/20-40-mary-robinette-kowals-personal-writing-process

Key points:  What is your writing process? Random schedule. Fitting writing in the gaps. Retrain yourself to work with your brain. Chaotic and gremlins. Write every day? Reshape habits. A thing you do or what you are? Habit or practice? Hyperfocus. Novel, interesting, challenging, urgent. Microsessions. Rice or eggs? Deadlines. Interruptions. White noise, and travel spaces. Defend your writing time. Today's three tasks and timeline. Reward yourself with the next bit of writing fun. Keep learning, it is never a solved problem.


[Season 20, Episode 40]


[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.


[Season 20, Episode 40]


[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Mary Robinette Kowal's Personal Writing Process.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.


[Mary Robinette]  So, we had this thought. I hear a lot of people say, "But what is your writing process?" and as successful writers, people who are published, what is your writing process? As if it is a key to being able to write. The idea here is that you're going to hear from each of the hosts. We're going to tell you what our personal writing process is. The other people are probably going to look at us like that's what you do? And the idea is that the only important process is the one that works for you. And that that's going to change over the course of your career, over the course of the project that you're working on. So...

[Howard] And by way of clarification, when we say you're going to hear from each of the hosts about this, on this episode we're talking about Mary Robinette's writing process.

[Mary Robinette] Right.

[Howard] And each of us are going to point fingers and say but how can that even work? Because I do not know how that can even work.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So my writing process is based on having a completely random schedule, but also having started with a random schedule, where I was putting writing in the gaps of everything else I was doing. I started writing novels sitting in a white cargo van in a passenger seat writing long hand while I was on puppetry tours. Because that was the thing that I could do. And then I had this ancient se... I mean, at the time, it was new... This sewing machine of a portable computer. And so then my process was I would transcribe things. The idea of doing that now seems like how did I even. But the kind of lingering effects of that is that I tend to write best in transit still. I love writing on an airplane, a train is amazing. And then at home, my writing process used to work best when I went to coffee shops. And then pandemic completely interrupted that. So, for me, I... I've gone through phases where I'm like I will write every day and I will have this word count. And now it's much more of a... I am having a reasonably good brain day, there are... This is a day of fewer distractions, some of the things that have shifted in my life is that I've had to do a bunch of Elder Care. So I went through a phase where I felt like every time I sat down to write that I would in some way punish the writing. Not by someone in specific, but that if I sat down to write, my mom was going to fall. And so I started to develop this real avoidance of wanting to get into the mode, because something traumatic kept happening. So where I am now with my writing process is that I am trying to retrain my brain and retrain my... I should say I'm trying to retrain myself to work with my brain, because I have an understanding of the fact that I have ADHD, I have depression. I didn't know those things when I started writing. And so, like, I'm trying to learn how to trigger hyper-focus on demand, and how to turn it off, or how to be okay with having hyper-focus broken. So a lot of my writing process now is using binaural sound to say, oh, this is writing time. Or making sure that I have lined up dates with other people. So there's a lot of hacking of my brain that goes on. But people ask me, what is my writing process?

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] I'm like it is completely chaotic and gremlins.

[Dan] Right out of the gate, I love this. Because one lesson that gets taught all the time, and I hate it, is that you have to write every single day if you want to be a real writer. And that's not how you work. That's not how I work, either. And being able to recognize, well, this is a good day, this is a good time, and other days and other times, you might have something more important to do. And that's okay. it doesn't make you a bad writer, it doesn't make you an inherently unprofessional writer. It's just how life is sometimes..

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] I want to rewind to an earlier thing, though, because the thought that I had as you're describing it is cargo vans don't have very good suspension.

[laughter]

[DongWon] So writing by hand in the passenger seat of a moving cargo van seems like your penmanship is quite remarkable, and I begin to understand why.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I didn't actually think about that. Something that you said, Dan, about the writing every day, reminds me of a thing that I learned for myself, which is that there is value in saying I write every day for me, because one of the things that I struggle with is executive function. And the I write every day reduces the level of executive function, because it means that's a decision I didn't have to make. So I've definitely... and I've preached this on the podcast, I try to write three sentences every day. That's actually not true for where I am right now. I don't actually do that. but that does make it much easier to... For my habit to be I have some free time, I'm going to go on Instagram rather than I'm going to sit down to write. And so that's a lot of what I'm trying to balance is learning how to reshape habits so that I lean towards oh, I have free time, I'm going to write, which is what I used to do. Like, my second novel, I literally wrote, like, probably half of it using a Palm Pilot and graffiti on the New York subways. I was just fitting it into the cracks on everything else I had to do. And now, like, I can arrange my schedule so that I can write anytime I want to, but, like, I have cat videos to edit.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Two things. One, I really love this idea that, like, you fit it into the cracks of your life, and I'm curious about that. But first, I actually read this book on habits, and one of the things that they said is that what habits do is move something that you're doing from a thing you do to a thing you are. And so, for example, people say I am a writer who writes every day versus, like, I need to write every day. And that if you do a habit long enough, that's why people would be, like, I'm a runner versus I am someone who runs daily. And that then shifts so that it just feels like such a baseline of who you are that you go ahead and, like, do it because it feels like it's part of your identity. That can be good or bad. It can become, like, a prison of identity. But that's something that, like... I think that's why sometimes people like that feeling of, like, I am a daily writer. 

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] The way I think about it is the difference between a habit and a practice. Right? A habit is something that you feel you need to do every day, it's on your calendar, or whatever it is, and if you fall off of that, then it feels like a failure. And I think that failure state often prevents people from returning. Versus a practice is something that you're always working at. Right? You're not expected to be perfect at it. You try to do it every day. And then tomorrow's always another opportunity to be the person that you see yourself as. Right? So, I am a writer, I practice writing. That means that you are making time and space in an intentional way, but not holding yourself to an unrealizable standard. Because I think very few people who say they write every day actually write every day. Right? Stuff happens. Right? There are emergencies, vacations, there's travel, there's all these other things, and quite frankly, I think you should be making time for those things, other interests in your life, other people in your life. And so it's okay if... Even if you are a daily writer, that you are not literally writing every day. Right? And so I think a lot of us can get really hung up on this like completionist perfection, and I think the idea of a practice can make that space for you to still see yourself as that thing and doing the thing without beating yourself up.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And I have some other ideas about, like, some of the ways that I have found to go in and out of a daily writing practice. And I will talk about those more after the break.


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[Mary Robinette]  So, before we took our break, I said that I was interested in exploring how I go in and out of a daily writing practice. Because one of the things that I realized, as someone who has ADHD, and, like, in hindsight so many of my career choices make sense because... One of the things that fuels an ADHD brain, or that we respond well to, is new things. But we also really enjoy, like, hyperfocus is a pleasurable thing for us. And so in hindsight, it's... I was choosing careers where I was in theater, so I had a new project every couple of months. Novel, interesting, challenging, and urgent. Those are the triggers. And I love doing those things. And so a new novel, very exciting. So I've realized that when I started, I was still participating in the late lamented Nano. And that is binge writing. That is hyperfocus for a month on a thing. And so now I recognize that,, actually, it's okay for me to say I'm going to focus on this for this period of time. But if I'm in a situation where I have to switch tracks, that I have to be able to learn how to take myself in and back out again for that. And so one of the things that I've been working on is micro sessions. Because I think one of the things that happens to someone who enjoys hyperfocus is that you think,, I'm going to get into that and I'm either going to be punished because I will miss... I'll be late to do something else or someone's going to interrupt me and that'll be frustrating. And so I've been doing... Setting timers and saying, okay, 5 minutes. And that will just... Like, look, I got a lot of words done. I can do this in 5 minute bursts. And then kind of building up. So that if I've been in a phase where I haven't been writing for a while, I can ramp myself up into it. Instead of having, like, a day where i'm like, okay, it's time for me to write, I'm going to write 2,000 words. Because that's what I write when I'm writing at pace, and then I'm exhausted because I haven't been writing daily, and then I don't write. So, like, learning to use these micro sessions to ramp up has been helpful.

[Howard] There's a famous object lesson involving a mason jar and eggs and rice, in which you want to  get everything into the jar. And if you pour the rice in first, there isn't room for the eggs. If you put the eggs in first, then the rice will fill the gaps. And the object lesson is find out what's important to you, put the important things in your life first, and then let everything else fill the gaps. And what you've described with some of the catch as catch can writing process, is learning to... And I'm going to extend and then break the metaphor because I'm me... Learning to be the monk who can write on a grain of rice. Turn your writing process into something that can fill the cracks. That can be on the grains of rice. Sometimes you want it to be an egg. Sometimes you want to block out 4 hours and just write. But you have to have the ability... I say you... For your process, you have to have the ability to write on a grain of rice on some days.

[Mary Robinette] Right. And so that is actually part of the thing is that when I have a deadline, which is, again, triggers the urgency thing, it's so much easier for me to do time blocking and stick to it. Otherwise, I'm very likely to block things out on my calendar and then be like, oh, well, we can move that.

[Erin] Thinking a lot again about the cracks and you writing on the modes of transit, which I think is fascinating, as somebody who has occasionally, like, written on the subway. What I wonder about this is, like, there's so many interruptions. Like, so, being on any form of transit, like, at any moment, like, things could be happening, a road sign, a thing. But it's like things that you anticipate happening. So it's like an interruption that you... Sometimes it's like an interruption that you have internalized is going to happen versus an unexpected interruption. Do you know what I mean?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Like... And I'm wondering, like, if that's something that you've played around with or thought about?

[Mary Robinette] So I think that the interruptions that happen in modes of transit are either things that you're expecting, so you can plan for them, because I know my stop is coming up. Or they're things that you don't actually have to engage with. The interruptions that I was dealing with were things that I had to engage with. Like I am... My mom passed in 2023. We live in a basement apartment. There are three dogs. I hear something hit the ground. And I still have this trauma response of I need to go deal with that. I'm like 100% don't. The dogs are fine. So I think some of that is the difference between interruptions you have to engage with and the ones you don't. But I think the other thing that, again, in hindsight, was happening for me was that there was just enough white noise, just enough stimulus happening either in the train or the coffee shop, that I had to focus harder, and that made it easier to ignore all of the other chat... Like, in the process of I have to ignore all of this other stuff, it made me also ignore all of the other random chatter in my brain, because I had to focus to block everything else out.

[DongWon] Well, one thing that's interesting, and I was thinking about this as we are talking about fitting the writing in the cracks, but also, your life is very demanding. Right? There's a lot of travel, there's a lot of interruptions. And so the question I had was how do you defend your time? And as you were talking about this last bit, I realized, oh, travel, because it's this liminal space...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Where you're sort of... You know how you walk into an airport and suddenly all societal rules are off?

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] Like you're like, oh, I can eat lunch at 9:00 in the morning...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] And you see people drinking like three martinis and you're like, what is happening right now?

[Chuckles]

[Howard] It's breakfast.

[DongWon] It's breakfast. Right? But there is this thing about, like, airports and planes and trains and subways where because it's like dead time in between other things...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] No one can actually really interrupt you in that time because you're traveling.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You're free in that space. Right? You're protected. So you're... I could see with how much you travel, like, let you have this sort of defended space. But when you're at home, do you have strategies for protecting your time? How are you keeping all the daily demands of your life a little bit at bay for, like, these 20 minutes, this 2 hours, whatever it is?

[Mary Robinette] No one can schedule a meeting with me before noon. Except in very rare occasions, where it's like a time sensitive thing, and that's... And even then, I have let my assistant do that. I don't get to make that call, because I will give my time away. And no one can make a meeting with me after 6:00 p.m.. So I have these windows in which meetings can happen. No one can make a meeting with me on Thursday, Friday, or Saturday. And so those are some things that I've done to try to carve out a little bit more time. I also... This is ridiculous, but I've... But it has worked. I have trained Elsie and Guppy that when I am at my desk, and I say, Mary Robinette working now, that they will both mostly curl up and go to sleep. Because they know that they will get treats and that I will play with them when I'm done. And that has made a huge difference. Because as much as I love the fact that I have taught my cat to talk, she is a toddler and needs a lot of attention.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] But those are the things that give me the ability to have space to write. The person I have to defend my writing space from the most is actually myself. So...

[Howard] Say that again for the people sitting in the back.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] The person I have to defend my writing time from the most is myself. Because I will give it away. I will think, oh, I can do it later. I will prioritize other things. So I've found that the best practice for me is that I get up in the morning, and when I've managed to do this, I have a really good day. Or I'm already in a good brain space. So I'm able to do it. Cause-correlation. Who knows? But I write down these are the things... The time-sensitive things that I have to do today. Here's the places I need to be. Here are three tasks that I'm going to try to accomplish. And if I don't write down writing as one of those three tasks, I will... I have effectively given my time away. But then I do a timeline for myself of what I'm going to be doing. So what I'm basically doing is I'm clumping my executive function at the beginning of the day when it... When I have the most of it. So that when I finish a task, I can look at my notebook, and go, oh, now I'm supposed to move to this... Move on to this... Now I'm supposed to write. And reframing it as... I just said supposed to. I've been trying to reframe it as now I get to write. Because supposed to comes with a certain amount of shame and guilt if you don't do it. So, now I get to write. And then I have a couple of things that I only get... Like, I have this candle that I love and I only get to light the candle when I am writing. I have a playlist of music that I really like, but I only turn that playlist on when I'm writing. So I have a couple of things. And then there's usually... the other thing that I've found that works very well for my brain is to have another piece of writing that is my reward for finishing this piece of writing. It's like once I finish this, then I get to do that. And once I finished that, then I get to do, like... Then I get to write the scene where they make out, and then I get to do the scene where the dragons are flying. And then I get to that... seeing the next bit of writing as the reward for this bit of writing helps me... It's like linked excitement.

[Dan] The thing that I really love about this, and I suspect that we will find it is true for all of us, is that your writing process is continually evolving.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Dan] It's not one thing that works for you. It's things that are changing. And some of that is your circumstances have changed, who you are living with, what job you have, but a lot of it is just you are learning more about yourself. You just said that you... Something you have found...

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Dan] About yourself. Giving yourself a reward. You are an incredibly accomplished and experienced writer, and you are still discovering things about yourself and your process. And that is, I hope, really beneficial for aspiring writers to hear. That on the one hand, maybe the downside, is that you never hit the point where you've perfected everything. It's never a solved problem. But the upside is that you are continually learning, you are continually growing, you're continually figuring out new things that work well for you.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So, that's our hope for you, our listeners, as you are listening to us talk about our writing processes. Because all of us are going to have... All of us have different brains and all of us have different strategies and challenges and goals.


[Mary Robinette] For you, I have some homework. What helps you want to do the things that you aren't writing? The other things in your life, the other tasks, the other joys that you have. What helps you with those? Because the tools that you use for those also work with writing. So is there anything that you use, like, is it lists, is it spreadsheets, is it by doubling? What is it that helps you want to do something? And can you use those same things to guide your writing process?


[Howard] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.


mbarker: (Me typing?)
[personal profile] mbarker
Writing Excuses 20.39: Wrapping up our Conversation about Lenses
 
 
Key points: How do you make one big mega-lens? Don't do it! Use the lenses during revision? Cherry-pick! Technique is for when you are struggling with the art. Use the lenses as exercises. Which lens do you resonate with, and which one do you struggle with? Where, worldbuilding, is the hands-down winner. Who! What is my motivation? To have a thing happen in the story, what kind of place do I need? The lens of slaps? Celebrate what you're good at.
 
[Season 20, Episode 39]
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 39]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[DongWon] Wrapping up our Conversation about Lenses.
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[DongWon] I'm DongWon.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Erin] I'm Erin.
[Howard] And I'm Howard.
 
[Erin] And I'm going to start this episode with a confession. Which is that our entire conversation about lenses came from the fact that Mary Robinette and I were in a conversation, and I was like what if we just talked about writing as like who, what, when, where, why, and how. Like, we all remember that from when we're children. It's super easy. And I feel like we found out like that there's so much complexity within these very simple theoretical lenses. That each of these lenses has lenses within the lenses. And so, my biggest question for all of you is how do you take all of this and like synthesize it. I mean, we've been talking about it and how it was done in All the Birds in the Sky. But for people who are trying to figure out how to take all of this knowledge and put it together into one mega lens, how the heck do you do it?
[Dan] Well, my advice would actually be to not do that and to ignore us entirely.
[Erin] Nice.
[Dan] During the process of composing and writing a book, I really feel like it has to come from you as a person, it has to be an expression of yourself and what's interesting to you and of how you're feeling. And then, in the revision process, you could go back and look… Use all these lenses to say, well, what have I done? What did I do? How did I do it? Is there a way that I can amp that up a little bit, or is there a lens… When I look through the lens of who, there's nothing to see. Clearly, I need to characterize better. They feel… At least for me, and how my process works, these all feel like really great revision tools. But using them as first draft writing tools runs the risk of just being too formalized and…
[DongWon] And overwhelming.
[Dan] Yeah.
[DongWon] Yeah. One thing I think about with how we approach this podcast and what our pedagogy is as a group… Right? Is so much… I mean, the phrase we use all the time is tools, not rules. Right? We're not giving you guys rules, we're just trying to give you a deep tools kit that you can pull from when you need to. And so the way we think about putting together a season, and this season in particular, I think, was a lot… Breaking down these lenses into a bunch of subtopics. And so, giving you the ability to be, like, I'm struggling with X, Y, or Z. And then you can go back and cherry pick, and be like, I'm going to listen to this episode. Or relisten to this one, or whatever it is. Right? And I'm going to continue along Dan's trend here of not being very good at marketing the podcast, but…
[Chuckles]
[DongWon] There's a way in which you don't need to listen to necessarily every episode that we do. What I want you to do is to feel like this is the thing that I need to be hearing right now, this is the thing that useful to me. I mean, plenty of people do listen to it back to front, but also, plenty of people dive in in the individual moments. Right? And so I think I'm doing a little bit of an end run around your question, Erin, in some ways. Because we all are synthesizing all of these things as we write. So hearing it once is helpful, but don't try and hold it all in your head, I guess is what I'm saying. And be more targeted about, like, hum, I'm struggling with this issue.
[Mary Robinette] Just jumping off of that, but then to actually answer Erin's question.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] I tend to think about the idea that the technique is there for when you're struggling with the art. I've talked before about when I was learning to do this particular style of puppet, I had to walk the puppet around the table, and that my mentor was looking for me for the point where I had internalized how to do the technique, so that when I was performing, I wasn't thinking about technique, I was just thinking about art. And in an ideal world, when you are writing, you are just dealing with stuff that you have internalized and you are… The artist is happening. You're chasing the emotion, you're chasing the tension, you're chasing the things you want to read and the things you enjoy. But I don't think that these things are limited to using them in the editorial process. I think Dan is absolutely right, that's a great place for them, but I also think that when you're writing, and you hit a wall and you're like, uck, I don't know how to move past this. You can reach for one of the lenses, and snap it in, and go, okay, is this where I'm having problems? Am I having problems with the who? Am I having problems with the where? And that that can give you a way to use technique to move forward, to find your way back into the art again. I know that when I am dealing with depression, that's when I am most likely to reach for the techniques. Because I can't trust my own judgment as well, because I am in a depressed state. So the way I learned to use things like this is what DongWon was saying was to cherry pick, to pick and choose. I would say pick one of the things that we've talked about, and say, okay, today I'm going to write and I'm going to do the thing I'm just going to chase the emotions, but I'm also going to keep this one lens on while I'm doing it to see if there are any opportunities that can occur while I'm writing. And when you do that, you will train yourself over time so that you do internalize that and you aren't having to think about it consciously. But, yeah, if you try to do all of this all at the same time, that's trying to learn 15 new techniques simultaneously, and you don't learn any of them well. So, I would do targeted practice with them.
[Howard] Yeah. There's a process that I'm working on learning right now, and it is creating comic pages using Clip Studio Paint. And I'm going to break it down into three pieces here. Piece number one is laying out the panels, because panels sort of dictate pacing. Piece number two is penciling the illustrations, composing the picture, because that's drawing the eye in, telling… The blocking and whatever. And piece number three is the dialogue. I can't obviously do all three at the same time. But I know that I have to do all three. And sometimes, I'll get stuck in the dialogue because I don't know the pacing yet. And so I have to stare at a blank page, and I have to just put panels on it, until I know where that line of dialogue has to go, and once I know that, ah, I can write the rest of it. Sometimes I have to pencil something. Relating this to the lenses, sometimes you're working on characters, and you feel like you've really grounded yourself in the lens of who, but you're stuck. And you take a step back and realize, oh, that's because everybody is standing in mid air in a white room. I need to come back to the lens of where, and I need to create a place. And until I've created the place, these people aren't going to be able to walk anywhere because their feet won't have any traction.
[Erin] Yeah. Something I… I love that, and something I find really helpful for myself is to try to think about the lenses as also exercises. So sometimes, like, if I can't figure out, like, let's say I've got two people, I'm like, oh, I love these two who's… They're who-ing around and I don't have a place for them. But I can't figure it out for this story. Sometimes it's helpful for me to take them out of the story and write what would these two people be doing in four different places? And that will give me a better sense of who they are and a better sense of which settings I think resonate with them and which don't. Or let me think of, like, eight things that could happen to them if I'm stuck on what. Because I think I am someone who can sometimes get really into one lens, and then it'll only take you so far. Like, at a certain point, if you only have plot and no character and no setting, like, you can run out of interest in the story yourself. Because it feels like you're just painting by numbers. And so I'm really interested in kind of figuring out how that all works. Like, how can I figure out this lens of who, even if that means taking the people out of the story and working on them separately in some sort of separate exercise. And so I hope that for you, this could also be something that you do. Maybe you can think about something that you want to do from one of our exercises as just a way to, like, remind yourself that you still have this lens. That you still have the capacity to use it, even if you can't figure out where it belongs in your current work. It's something you know how to do. It's a technique that you have that you can rely on.
[Dan] I wanted to add to that, because I've done that accidentally. A couple of years ago, I started getting a lot of jobs writing audio scripts. And in audio scripts, at least in the type of format that I was writing for, there was no narrator. And so everything that was in the scene had to be conveyed audibly. If there was a machine, it had to be. And so I got really good at writing dialogue. I think it improved my dialogue so much, because I didn't have a narrator there, there wasn't this third-party saying, he said, exultantly. I wasn't able to rely on those kinds of tricks. And all of that had to be conveyed just through the dialogue. And then, I went back to do a regular old prose fiction book project, and realized that I was no longer writing setting into anything that I wrote. That I had forgotten how to write narration, and how to let the characters feel like they're actually in a place instead of floating in an empty white room, like Howard said. And then I had to relearn that whole process and get good at that again. It was painful, and, like I said, I did it accidentally, but it was really great to go through, because I feel like I'm better at both of those things now, having focused on them individually.
[Erin] I love that. And it makes me think of a deeply personal question that I will ask you after the break.
 
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[Erin] So, thinking about your experience, Dan, working with one lens and forgetting another, I'm curious for everyone, is there a lens that you personally resonate the most with, and is there a lens that you struggle with? And then, what's the difference between the way you approach those two?
[Mary Robinette] We all stare at each other, going, oh, now I'm [garbled]
[Dan] Oh…
[Mary Robinette] [garbled] Think about my process and…
[DongWon] I mean, I think I can answer that first, because most of the writing I do is game oriented. Right? As someone who runs games, as someone who does worldbuilding for games, and things like that. So, for me, I mean, where is the obvious, hands down, winner. Right? I'm thinking so much about what I call critical worldbuilding. It's a term I stole from Austin Walker and friends at the table, but it's this idea of the worldbuilding you use is a way to communicate your intention about the thematic's of the world. Right? So that… It derives from why, but you can use all the things about cultures you create, the physical landscapes, and just constantly asking why is the world like this? Why is this physical space like this? Why do I want there to be a desert here, why do I want there to be a forest here, why do I want this culture to eat this kind of food? And that provides a space for my characters to bounce around in, and or my players really to bounce around in and create character, and from that, we get story. Right? And so delineating the playspace by creating the world is so much of the primary tool in my kit. Or at least the starting point for prep. And then the rest of it is all this, like, desperately grabbing whatever you can in the moment.
[Mary Robinette] I tend to start… Like, where I start my stories from… Who knows? Sometimes it's plot, sometimes it situation, and all of that. But the… Of the lenses, the one that comes the most naturally to me is the lens of who, I think that is really because I came out of live theater, where we did not have control over the where, we didn't have control over the why, somebody else was telling… There was… Somebody else created the structure, somebody else was doing the decorations, and the direction. And so the thing I was in charge of was what is my motivation? How does this character sound? How do they move? And so that's the lens that I… Like I am just… I understand that one, that's the one I have internalized the most. I think the where, also, I tend to… Because I was a set designer, I tend to think about that. But I don't always think about the when. Like… Which is funny, because I write historical stuff, right?
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] But a lot of times when I go back, when I'm looking at my stories where I have fallen down is not thinking about implications of calendar. And so… That is the part that I have to pre-plan the most. Like, you will sometimes hear me talk about these massive spreadsheets that I've got to figure out the time… Some of it's because I have to deal with technical stuff, like, the time lags, but a lot of it is because I know that, just like in my real life, I will have two things happening at the same time that could not possibly happen…
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] At the same time.
 
[Howard] The… Jackie Chan movies always seem to have a very clear sense of where driven by why will this be a cool place to have a fight. And I'm not propping them up or dissing them or anything. I'm just saying that that attitude, that idea, that mindset of I want to have a thing happen in my story, what's the place that I need?
[DongWon] How can I get as many glass panes in one scene…
[Howard] Exactly.
[DongWon] As I possibly…
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] [garbled] How can I [garbled] one ladder?
[Howard] For me… Oh, the ladder fight. That was so epic.
[Mary Robinette] The best.
[Howard] For me, it's… For 20 years, it's come down to which character is going to be able to deliver the punchline. And that… That reverse engineers into a very detailed understanding of who… I have to know all of the who because… I mean, early days, yeah, I was just telling dad jokes, and it was fun. But I very quickly realized I don't want to make fun of science fiction. I'm telling social satire. I… This is all character-driven humor. Oh, no. You can't have character-driven humor if you don't understand what makes each and every one of these characters tick. And so, for me, yeah, it always comes back down to who. Which is problematic because when I need to draw backgrounds, I have to know the where…
[Chuckles]
[Howard] And, oh, backgrounds are the worst.
[Dan] I think it's interesting that Howard and Mary Robinette both said who, because that would be my answer to this question as well, is who. Who is in this story? Whose perspective are we going to see this from? I can't write something until I know who I'm writing about. And I think that's true of all the lenses to some degree. But who is the one that preoccupies my mind more than anything. For my book, Extreme Makeover, I had this incredible new science fiction technology that I wanted to write about, and I knew what was going to happen in the story, but who does it happened to? Who is going to be the most interesting person with whom the reader can experience the story I have in my mind? That is, for me, the very most important thing.
[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, it makes sense to me, that all three of you said who. Right? Because, for me as a reader, as an editor, and all these things, plot descends from character. Right? Who the person is determines so much, and what they want determines so much of what action is going to unfold from that. Right? And so I love hearing that from your perspective, it's the who. In my second role, or primary role, honestly, as an agent and as an editor, for me, that lens that I'm coming to fiction with is the why. Why did you write this book? What is this book? Why are you the one to write this book? And so that's the lens with which I'm analyzing what you've done. But I think as a writer, starting with who makes the most sense. But, Erin, you never answered this. I jumped in ahead of you. So…
[Mary Robinette] You have to answer your own question [today]
[chuckles]
[Erin] Please, those aren't the rules I set.
[Laughter]
[Erin] No, it's funny. I mean, I want to say who. And some of this is actually looking at… And if you're trying to answer this question for yourself, how do I engage with others stories? What is the lens through which I am interested in the way things are told? I'm a big soap opera viewer, because I… Soap operas are just characters slapping each other and making out…
[Chuckles]
[Erin] It's very who focused. Lots of things happen, but it's very who. I like the WWE for the same reason. Big people with ladders, meaty men slapping meat, but it's about…
[Chuckles]
[Erin] It's about who these two men…
[Laughter]
[Erin] Oh, is this safe here?
[Laughter]
[Erin] I'm sorry. Anyway…
[DongWon] It's just men slapping each other. That's what I'm getting out of this. The lens of slaps. I think…
[Erin] Anyway. No.
[DongWon] Continue, though, please.
[Erin] I think that who is obviously important, but something I've been realizing recently is I've been talking a lot about, in my own life, about the weight of the story, and feeling like the characters are moving through a space, and that they are carrying all the things that they brought with them, and that who they are, and the… But the when and the where, the setting, the culture… So all of that is who, but I think it's like, less… It's a very embodied who. It's a very… To me, it's very like voice-y… I'm a voice-y writer… A voice-y who. And, like, part of that is, like, how do you tell that story? And it's why I find what, the plot, really difficult. Because when you're telling a great story, you, the person, can bring people through a lot of things that don't make sense, because they enjoy the way you're telling it. But it doesn't work as well in prose as it does if you put people around a campfire. Once you print it, you can't control the setting in which they are enjoying your words. And so therefore, you have to have more actual structure to go through, that brings that who along so you don't just feel like you're wondering after an interesting person into the desert to, like, starve to death.
[Mary Robinette] What you're talking about makes me think about the way I answered that question, which is… I told you which lens I was using, like, came with unconsciously to me. But I think that an interesting thing would be to look at which ones are you using… Are you grabbing because it is uncomfortable, because you do want to experience. And I was a little bit flippant when I talked about the when. But the difference between telling a story around the campfire… The when… The whereness of that versus telling a story from a stage makes me think it reminded me that one of the things that I have been playing with recently is thinking about consciously changing the who I am writing for. So… Because I tell different stories, I put different things in, because I'm… I know this person really loves found family, this person really loves queer fiction. This person really just wants to see Pirates. And that that changes my choices a lot. And so character comes naturally to me, but thinking very consciously about the outward expression of that, whether that's the when or the where or the who, I think is kind of fun to play with.
[Howard] Kind of like the lens of who, for me, is a contact lens that's just always on my face, and the other lenses are things that I will pick up and grab as I need them. I'm always grabbing for all of them. I'm writing science-fiction that has an epic scope. Well, obviously, there's going to be when, there's going to be where. We've talked a bit about the why I tell any of these stories. All of these are things that I reach for. I think that I may have come closest to fully internalizing the tool of who. At risk of sounding like I'm way better at it than I really am. Because all of these are things that I need work on.
[Erin] And yet, I think it's good to celebrate, like, what we're good at.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Erin] Which is going to lead me to the homework.
 
[Erin] I want you to think about all of the lenses, and think about something that you think you do really well. The lens that you think comes most naturally to you, that you enjoy the most. And I just want you to write down what it is, maybe one place that you've used it, and really congratulate yourself for using the lens that you are using the best, the best way that you can.
[Mary Robinette] I love that homework.
 
[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 
mbarker: (Burp)
[personal profile] mbarker
Writing Excuses 20.38: An Interview with Charlie Jane Anders
 
 
Key points: A sequel? Backburner. Multiple POV and omniscient POV. Hidden narrators. The book grows up with the characters. Whimsy! Humor. Silly, noir, goofy! Pair humor with other stuff. Scientists and witches, lasers and spell books. One zany trope is entertaining and fun, 3,000... overload and boring. Add emotion and relationship. Fill the silence with active listening. Beat-by-beat plot? Many iterations. Little bits of information...
 
[Season 20, Episode 38]
 
[unknown] I swear, Detective, I was nowhere near the Polo Lounge on the night my poor darling husband Charles was murdered. I was on a Who Dun It mystery cruise with my assistant, Dudley, a darling boy. You, too, can join us on our next deadly cruise, February 6, 2026, seven nights out of Los Angeles on the Navigator of the Seas. Call now, if you dare, 317-457-6150 or go to whodunitcruises.com.
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 38]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[DongWon] An Interview with Charlie Jane Anders.
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[DongWon] And I'm DongWon.
 
[Mary Robinette] And we're very excited to have a special guest, Charlie Jane Anders, joining us today.
[Charlie Jane] Hi.
[Mary Robinette] So, for those of you who've been listening along, we've been doing a deep dive into Charlie Jane's book, All the Birds in the Sky. And we're excited to have her here with us to talk about process, and to talk about tone, and some of the other really cool narrative tricks that she was using when we're…
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] When playing with this book. And I think it… It turns out this is fairly timely, since you're working on a sequel right now.
[Charlie Jane] I mean, it's kind of on the back burner at the moment, but I wrote about 30,000 words of a sequel, and people who preordered Lessons in Magic and Disaster… By the time you listen to this, they will have gotten a PDF with the sequel plus some deleted stuff from All the Birds. But it's… I wrote about 30,000 words, and I kind of… I have to kind of stop and think about it. So, that's on the back burner. I have other projects I'm probably going to work on first. But that's… I've written a chunk of a sequel.
[Mary Robinette] Amazing. [Garbled]
[DongWon] Interesting. I mean… We're such huge fans of the first book, and it's been such a delight talking about it in the past few weeks here.
[Charlie Jane] That's awesome.
[DongWon] So, I'm very excited for any news about a sequel when it comes around.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] Yeah. Eventually.
[Chuckles]
[Charlie Jane] At some point, there will be a sequel.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. This is… I feel like this kind of conversation is probably actually really reassuring to new writers, who are like, oh. Oh, I'm not the only one who does 30,000 words of a novel and then has to sit there and go huh.
[Charlie Jane] Yeah. I mean, I promised… Like, I decided to promise people who preordered Lessons in Magic and Disaster this thing as a preorder reward. And so I always kind of knew I was going to, like… Just because I was having fun playing around with writing a sequel. And so I was like I know I have enough of an idea of what I'm doing to get that much done. I mean, originally, it was going to be 10,000, and it just kind of ballooned to 30,000. Because, that was just the section I was writing got to be that long. But… Yeah. I mean, it's going to be… I think the rest of that book is going to be a lot of work, and I'm going to have to… I'll wait until I'm at the point where I like feel like I've got some breathing room and can really slow down.
 
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Well, do you want to talk about the… Some of the work that you did with the first novel?
[Charlie Jane] Sure.
[Mary Robinette] Because… There were a bunch of things that we were very excited about. When we picked it, one of the reasons I was particularly excited about it was because you were using more than one POV…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] And because you were tipping into omniscient POV. It's something that we don't see used a lot. But I felt that you were using it very effectively to kind of move the reader around the story that takes place over decades.
[Charlie Jane] Yeah. I mean… It's interesting. Like, I kind of felt like I was being a little rebellious, kind of dipping into omniscient POV with that book. Like… And I didn't do it that much. I did it here and there, like, there are versions of it where it gets much more omniscient, and, like, I go much deeper into that omniscient thing. Like I'm just much more leaning into that. But I… I feel like it worked. Really, I thought it worked pretty well sparingly. Like, I thought doing it, like, once in a while, was really like fun, and if I tried to push it, it might have gotten… I don't know. I was aware that a lot of people have issues with omniscient POV. I think for reasons that are kind of misguided.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] But I think they think that omniscient narrator is going to just like literally be omniscient and, like, just tell you everything that's going on. Which I don't think has ever been the case with omniscient narrators.
[DongWon] Right.
[Charlie Jane] Like, they don't… Like, there's always a degree of, like, selectiveness  in what the omniscient narrator tells you and how intrusive it is. Like, even going back to when it was more ubiquitous. But, yeah, I mean… There's a scene in All the Birds in the Sky which I'm sure you all have already talked about, where Lawrence and Patricia are sitting under the escalator at the mall…
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[Charlie Jane] And they're looking at the shoes of the people who go by and they're trying to guess who these people are based on their shoes, and then the narrator comes in and says that the last person that they guessed, they actually guessed right and he is an assassin. He's actually… Wants to kill them. And, like, that was, like, I was like, oh, this is going to be the part where everybody's going to throw the book across the room and quit reading. And instead, I don't know how many people have come up to me at this point and said that's their favorite moment in the book or that's when they got hooked. Which is so funny. Because I was like… I almost cut it out, I was like, oh, my God, this is gonna make people stop reading the book. It's gonna like… It's gonna destroy the book. So, for me, to just like throw that in. And I just… I felt like it was a fun playful thing. And I think the playfulness was an important thing with the omniscient narrator in general. And I did feel like there's a lot of choices I made in that book where I was kind of giving a middle finger…
[Chuckles]
[Charlie Jane] To people on the Internet who were saying you can't do X, Y, and Z, and I was just like I'm going to do all those things because [garbled]
[laughter]
[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, I think there's, like, a very, very vocal and very small minority of readers who get very fixated on POV and get very rigid about what the rules of POV are and how they can be deployed and I think you're exactly right, that there is such a sense of play to the way you use the POV here that makes it such a delightful reading experience. I can totally see why people… I mean, that moment jumped out at me too. It's such a great little moment, and so deftly sliding from one perspective to another, and then opening up more of the world. And I want to go back to something that you were saying about having an omniscient narrator not really being quote unquote omniscient. They're not a character in the book, but the narrator still has a perspective. How do you think about POV when you're not grounded in a particular character then?
 
[Charlie Jane] I mean, I think that like I said, most of the time we are grounded in a particular character, and I think if you do omniscient narration, it does kinda become a character in the book at some point. And, like… I've read, like, three or four novels published in the past year, and I'm… I think of the title of one of them off the top of my head, but I don't know… It's kind of a spoiler, so I don't even know if I should say the one that I think of the title of. But I've read, like, a few books in the past year where the narrator appears to be omniscient, and then at a certain point, like, halfway through the book, you find out it's actually a character who just knows a lot of stuff and is narrating all this stuff from there vantage point of like… And, like, that's a trick that I see people do lately, of, like, oh, you think it's an omniscient narrator, but it's actually Fred. Who, Fred, knows a lot of stuff and just hasn't introduced themself yet. Just kind of like hiding who they are from you until a certain point in the book. And, obviously, I feel like it's been out for long enough that, like, The Scent of Bright Doors. You don't find out who the narrator is until almost the end of the book.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] Like, I feel like that's a trend right now, the hidden narrator. The narrator who is actually… He's a specific viewpoint, but we don't know until we get to almost the end [garbled]
[DongWon] [garbled]
[Charlie Jane] Sorry.
[DongWon] Every single time, I find that really delightful and enjoyable. So… Maybe I'm part of the trend here.
[Charlie Jane] I've always [garbled] Yeah. Like, I feel like it could get overdone at some point. Maybe we'll be like, okay, enough of the hidden narrator. Like… I definitely… I think, yeah. I really like that. But I also think that's a sneaky way to do an omniscient narrator without doing an omniscient narrator. Like, have a narrator who just by virtue of being some kind of supernatural entity or a person who just is in a privileged position has a degree of what appears to be omniscient, and then is like, ha ha ha. And there's probably a version of All the Birds where it turns out that it's narrated by Peregrine, the AI, and like… I made various attempts to adapt the book for screen a few years ago, and one of the things I toyed with was, like, maybe for me to have a narrator speak up occasionally. It could be Peregrine, the AI, as narrator [garbled]
[Mary Robinette] Oh, yeah.
[Charlie Jane] Because Peregrine does have this privileged viewpoint. But I actually like having an omniscient narrator that's just an omniscient narrator. But I think… Like, I very much came up… Like, one of the traditions that kind of influences me is the tradition of, like, loosely, like, Douglas Adams and Kurt Vonnegut, who at least when I was young, they were compared a lot. In fact, how I got into Kurt Vonnegut is people kept comparing Douglas Adams to him, and they're obviously [garbled] in some ways, but they do have that kind of… They do have a narrator who is chatty and over shares and kind of like… Often will kind of intrude on the story in various ways. And I love that. I think it's really fun and funny, and I think we've lost something by not… Like, I think it's… There… It's not just that there's a minority of readers who don't like omniscient narration, there also are just busybodies who give writing advice with a little perspective where there like, these are the things you must never do, and, like… And those people… They're… I'm sure they're lovely people, but they should shut the hell up.
[Chuckles]
[Charlie Jane] Or learn to be less prescriptive, really. But, yeah, I like the playfulness, I like the… I think when you're writing… But to return to your question, DongWon, because I didn't really answer it. When you have… When you're not in a particular character's POV, I think it really helps if the narrator has, like, maybe not opinions necessarily, but, like, they are telling you information that is relevant to the story in a way that is kind of like commenting on the story from a particular, like… They're giving you perspective and often it's perspective that the characters are not aware of or that is not quite like within the confines of what people in the scene know. And so the narrators sneakily giving you little extra pieces of information. And so I like a mischievous narrator, I guess.
 
[DongWon] Do you see that as your perspective or do you see that as something external again, like, is it another layer in between you and the text?
[Charlie Jane] It's a little bit of both, I guess. I mean, it's not me me…
[DongWon] Right.
[Charlie Jane] It's not like me being, like, hi, is Charlie Jane, I'm going to tell you stuff. But it is kind of… It is my kind of… Obviously, everything in the story come from me in the end, of course, as always is the case. I think it's a viewpoint that is kind of closer to authorial than that of any other characters, I guess, is what I would say. But it's still not the authorial viewpoint, necessarily. And, like, you can have a narrator who is wrong about stuff. Or you can have a narrator who provides misleading information or… I feel like a part of why people don't like omniscient narrators is because they think it's just going to, like, spoil the story, or, like, tell you too much, and, like, omniscient narrators can actually mess with you in various ways and give you… Like, give you more perspective, but also maybe tell you stuff that's actually going to lead you astray. Or whatever. Or… I don't know. Um.. Yyeah.
 
[Mary Robinette] One of the things that I liked about the way you were using the omniscient narrator, for me, specifically, was the way you were using it to shape tone. Because in the first part of the book, when they are little, it takes on this kind of swami British, like, children's fantasy novel. Or children's… And then as we move, the omniscient narrator… There's a continuity of tone, but also, the narration style ages up very subtly each time we go. So that when we get to them as adults, we get very few intrusions of the omniscient narrator. They just appear at just, I think, very key points, because the rest of the time, it is stylistically more like an quote adult novel. Which is either… Which tends to be, in science fiction and fantasy, tight third person. Were you doing conscious decisions about that sort of pushing or pulling or was it just sort of happening in revisions?
[Charlie Jane] Yeah. I mean, I like the idea that the book kind of grows up with the characters. That was something I thought a lot about, for sure, and I thought… I mean, I dialed it way back, like, in the earlier drafts, like, the first couple chapters, like, the opening Patricia chapter was written in a much more fairytale style. Like, almost, Once upon a time, there were two sisters. It wasn't quite that, but it was pretty close to that. And people were like this is too hard. Like… It's too jarring. That transition from, like, straight up fairytale, like, kind of to something more grown-up. I also, like, when I had the more fairytale stuff in the beginning, the omniscient narrator was going to be much more front and center, because I was going to start out with, like, two girls in the woods, and, like, it's very fairytale and… But Roberta was going to grow up to be a serial killer. And, like, just kind of throw in pieces of information that would just let you know on page 1 that this is not that story. And in the end, I cut that, because I ended up not going quite that far into fairytale land and it felt intrusive to just start throwing spoilers at you on page 1. But… And actually, Roberta is not really a serial killer in the final draft. She's just… She has killed someone, but there was extenuating circumstances. He kind of deserved it. But, yeah. I mean… But the tone kind of evolving was something that I really struggled with. And, in general, the level of whimsy was something that I really struggled with. Like, I didn't want it to go too far into whimsy and in fact in my subsequent works, I really kind of moved away from whimsy a little bit, because I felt like I… It… That can kind of take over and it can become, like, the exclusion of, like, character and emotion and stuff. Like, I feel like I had to pare back the whimsy a lot in order to make the characters feel fully… Like, fully realized and emotional and make their relationship feel as real as it needed to and… So there was a lot more kind of… For lack of a better word, twee kind of whimsical cuteness in the first draft, and I really dialed it way back, and, like, only kept the stuff that felt like it really belonged.
[Mary Robinette] Well, why don't we go ahead and take our break, and when we come back, let's talk about how we make decisions about humor and whimsy.
 
[Mary Robinette] And as part of our break, Charlie Jane, I think you're going to tell us about your newest book?
[Charlie Jane] Yeah. Thank you. So, my newest book, which came out on August nineteenth, is called Lessons in Magic and Disaster. And it's got a lot of that sort of quirky whimsical tone as well. It does get a little darker and sadder in places. It is about a young trans woman who is a PhD student in English literature, but more importantly, she's a witch. And her mother, Serena, has been depressed and kind of hiding from the world for several years since some really bad stuff happened. And Serena [Janie?] decides the way to bring her mother back to the world and kind of help her mother kind of embrace life is to teach her mother how to do magic. Which, magic being magic, has some unpredictable results, and magic is kind of a mirror for, like, your desires and your sense of self in this book. And so, not surprisingly, Janie's mother comes to use it very differently than Janie does, and that leads to a lot of interesting mother-daughter conflict. But there's also, just, like, a lot of cozy queer vibes and occasional upsetting stuff, mixed with a lot of cozy queer vibes and, like, queer activism of the 1990s and the 1730s as, like, we get flashbacks about Janie's mom when she was a young woman, and also Janie is researching queers of the eighteenth century. Which turns out there was a lot of them.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] So, yeah, it's about kind of queer survival and queer joy and healing and forgiveness and learning to understand your mother as a human being rather than as just, like, this icon from your childhood.
[Mary Robinette] It sounds so good. I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on that.
[Charlie Jane] Yay.
[DongWon] [garbled] That sounds really amazing, and just what we need.
[Charlie Jane] Well, thank you.
[Mary Robinette] Let me remind you, that is Lessons in Magic and Disaster by Charlie Jane Anders.
 
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[Mary Robinette] All right. Now we're back from our break, and we are going to talk about how to make decisions about whimsy and humor, and where to place it, and how much to dial it up or down, and it's a fun, but complicated, subject sometimes. When you were working on All the Birds in the Sky, did you know going in that you wanted it to have that sort of whimsical tone or was that a discovery as you were writing it?
[Charlie Jane] Yeah, I mean, I think from the jump, it was a very whimsical novel. And, like, I was writing a different novel… Like, what happened is, backing up slightly. I had an urban fantasy novel that was a kind of noir like paranormal detective… Not quite detective, but paranormal investigator type novel, in the kind of vein of, like, Jim Butcher or Richard Kadrey's Sandman Slim novels, or the Octave… The October Daye novels. Like, that kind of stuff. And it was like… We're talking 2011. I was working on this urban fantasy noir book, and I was walking in the park, and this idea about a witch and a mad scientist just kind of bonked me on the head. And I had to go write down a bunch of stuff about it. And so I feel like every project I write, I kind of approached differently. The urban fantasy novel also is very silly in places. It had a lot of very silly stuff, but it also had that more noir tone. So I always knew that this was going to be more whimsical. And I always knew that this was going to be more of a fun, kind of almost goofy, novel. And, like I said earlier drafts were much goofier. And I feel like, as a writer, I am someone… At least I have been someone to whom goofy humor comes really naturally. Like, my first attempts at writing science fiction and fantasy were just pure zany comedy with, like, ridiculous premises and, like,… Just like the silliest stuff  I could come up with, and they weren't very good. They didn't have… The characters are one-dimensional. Often, they just ended, like they would just, like, oh…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] And that's the… Story's over now. Go home, folks. Nothing to see here. Oh, you wanted resolution. Oh, well, too bad.
[Laughter]
[Charlie Jane] But, yeah. No, I was really good at goofy, zany humor, and it… Basically, I would say that the course of, like mo… The first, like, I don't know how many years of my career, from, like, when I started writing fiction seriously to All the Birds in the Sky, I was learning to kind of… Learning to pair humor with other stuff. And eventually kind of dial back the humor, because I got the feeling… And I got feedback from people that the humor was… That I was like sacrificing character and emotion for the sake of humor and that… And so now, I think, I am… When I use humor, it's something that I… Is an intentional thing that I put in intentionally. But originally, it was just like the automatic thing that I always did. And then I would add character and story and plot and stuff on top of that [garbled] or under that or whatever. And I think that… I mean, there's a version of All the Birds… Like, in my very, very first crack at All the Birds in the Sky, it was going to be just like complete, like, campy comedy of like scientists and witches battling it out with, like, lasers versus, like, spell books versus, like wizar… Like, ghosts and goblins and vampires and aliens and everybody's just like… There's like every silly trope from both genres, just like bursting out all over the place. And that would have been actually very boring. Because one zany trope is entertaining and fun, 3,000 zany tropes is just like…
[Chuckles]
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] It just becomes… It just… Yeah. It just becomes, like, overload and it's boring and… Functionally, they all start to feel the same. Like, an elf and an alien are not that different, unless you put a lot of effort in making them different.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
 
[Charlie Jane] And so, yeah, and so I realized that I really wanted this to be… And I had just written Six Months, Three Days, my short story that [garbled] attention, which was very focused on the relationship and was more emotional. And so I was like, I want to bring that energy to it. And so it was really like challenging myself to have that kind of whimsical humor, but also that emotion and that kind of feeling of, like, being… Especially the main part of the novel, when they're growing up, being in their twenties, and just, like, getting what you always wanted, but it's still kind of sucks.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] And, like, you're finally in the city and getting to like have an awesome life, kind of, but life still kind of sucks.
[Mary Robinette] You also have to be an adult.
[DongWon] Yes.
[Charlie Jane] Like, yeah. Being an adult is just… Yeah. Anyway. And so, yeah, and I feel like I really tried to have more of the humor come out of character, and I'll give a very specific example that I think I've probably touched on before. There's a moment in the book where Lawrence is starting to, like… His relationship with his girlfriend Serafina is unraveling, like, they are just… Things are not working out between them. And there is a moment where the narrator… Like, they just run out of things to say to each other, and Lawrence is trying so hard to be, like, a good boyfriend, and it's actually self sabotaging as he's just over… He's trying too hard. And there's a moment in an earlier draft, where the narrator said… Says, Lawrence tried to fill the silence with active listening.
[Chuckles]
[Charlie Jane] Which I thought was a [garbled] line, because, like, you can't do active listening if, like, nobody's talking. Right? And then I was like, you know what? That's the narrator coming in and telling us that Lawrence is a chump. What if it is Lawrence reflecting to himself, I wish I could fill the silence with active listening. Or I am… Or just realizing, in his own mind, that he is trying to do this thing that's impossible. Then it's got pathos as well as humor…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] Because it's Lawrence realizing, oh, I'm screwing up. This is like… This thing I'm trying to do is not working.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] And by changing… Just changing, like, three words, from, like, the narrator, like, standing above and, like, looking at Lawrence and laughing at him to Lawrence kind of realizing ruefully, kind of laughing at himself, but also realizing that he is… He's messing up, and that this is not working. That just made it… It was still funny, I think, but it was funny in a different way.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] And so that was a lightbulb moment for me, of just, like, oh, the humor can actually come from within the characters, and the characters can be part… They can be in on the joke to some extent, or if we are going to make fun of them, we can at least respect their perspective in some way. Kind of. I don't know.
[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, I really love hearing you talk about that, because I can see now that you've pointed it out all the ways in which you've implemented that throughout the book. Right? I mean, there's about six different tones in the book. Because you have the fantasy side, the science fiction side, and then you have the three different age categories. Right? And I can sort of see that… You talk about the early version as being very whimsical, and there's certain whimsy in play in the book, but I don't think of that as my primary reaction to it in a lot of ways. Right? Like, that original concept you had of, like, laser guns versus spell books, big explosive battle. That kind of makes it into the book, but when it does, it's quite scary and really upsetting, actually.
[Charlie Jane] Yeah.
[DongWon] I mean, like, we watch a witch die, pretty horribly, like on screen someone who's been really interesting and compelling. God, I love the way her magic works in the book, too.
[Charlie Jane] Oh.
[DongWon] But then I can sort of see where you start with this idea of, like, oh, here's the fun big concept, but then adding that character depth to it. You don't lose the crazy energy of it, because it's still a bunch of witches fighting a bunch of scientists with guns, and there's something about that that's so delightful and exciting and strange. But then it's like grounded in this very deep way that lets you get out the core issues of how to be a person, how to be in community, how to be a partner to somebody. Right? All of those things that, to me, were so resonant with my experiences of growing up in a city, of trying to figure out how to be in a community with people, and all of that.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Likewise, I feel like this book has so much heart to it.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] And it really is about people just trying to connect and to be the best version of themselves, while they are… Have been influenced by someone…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] Else's idea of what the best version of themself looks like. And I love watching them unpack the layers, but using the humor as this kind of scalpel to sort of… It's like, aha! That's funny, but now I'm going to make you hurt just a little bit more.
[Chuckles]
[DongWon] It's not just a spoonful of sugar. Right? But there is a little bit of that, like, that candy coating that gets us into the meat of the story a little bit. And it's interesting, because you can… I think both are failure states in terms of only being whimsy and only being lightness, and then only being darkness and grittiness. Right? Like, I think I've seen both cases where you lose the core message of what the author's trying to get at, if it's just, like, overwhelming violence and horror and upset versus overwhelming just charm and whimsy and… Both are hard to dig your sort of, like, teeth into. Right? To continue with food metaphors here. It's hard to get into the body of it sometimes.
 
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Because, like, if you look at this book on a beat-by-beat plot basis, it's very dark and grim.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] Yeah, I guess so.
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] It's like two different kids who were… Who dealt with very different forms of abuse from neglect.
[Charlie Jane] Yeah. I mean…
[Mary Robinette] And then the… And increasing, like, escalating bullying, escape to places in which they experience different kinds of bullying. They have a brief… They both get a brief heyday of everything seems to be going well. But then they're both in relationships that are not the right relationships. And then the world ends.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] It's like… It's pretty…
[Charlie Jane] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] Bleak. But it doesn't feel bleak while you're reading it. I mean, a couple of places that it does, but it is [garbled]
[DongWon] Only in moments that feel very, very intentional that we feel…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] That, as we feel that heaviness before heading into the next sort of emotional beat. Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] Well, like the whole sequence with the hot pepper sauce.
[Charlie Jane] Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] That was so… I mean that… I think I went into Roald Dahl mode a little bit, like Roald Dahl…
[Laughter]
[Charlie Jane] Books was like stories that I read when I was a kid, of, like, people being really kind of tortured…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] By adults, or by each other, and, like… I don't know. I… Yeah, I didn't realize how intense some of those childhood scenes were until people told me, dude, that was like… That was really a lot. And this is the thing, I… With every book I write, like, I don't know… Like I just… I don't know until I… Until it's out in the world or until beta readers read it. There's some parts where there like oh, this is funny, and other people are like, that's really horrifying…
[Laughter]
[Charlie Jane] And I'm like, oh. Okay. Like I just… I don't know if that's because I'm a terrible person or if it's just because it's really hard to tell sometimes when you're inside a story.
[Mary Robinette] It's hard to tell.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] Yeah. God.
[DongWon] When you're inside it… And then… I think it's also sometimes what community you're in. You know what I mean?
[Charlie Jane] Yeah.
[DongWon] And if you're surrounded by a lot of people who've been through a lot, then what is baseline funny in those circles can sometimes not travel well and certain other communities.
[Charlie Jane] That's very true. Yeah. And like… Yeah… I mean, I think this book was just me throwing everything out there and just being like I'm just going to do all of it and see what I can get away with, kind of.
[DongWon] Yeah.
 
[Mary Robinette] Can I ask you… You said there's one version where it's like this, and there's one version where it's like that. Do you know how many versions or drafts you went through to find this book?
[Charlie Jane] I mean…
[Laughter]
[Charlie Jane] For that… For… When… I'm going to send people… When, I'm hopefully by the time you hear this, we'll have sent people the PDF of bonus material. I had to… Like, one of the things that I did was grab deleted scenes that were like… Scenes that almost made it into the book, like, they got very close, but they were cut for link reasons. But also, there's a whole… Like, I'm calling it an alternate ending. It's like I feel a little bit bigger than that. It's like a whole other, like, version of the climax with a lot of stuff leading up to it that was different. And I… So the other day, I was looking back through the draft folder and I have things labeled, like, sixth draft, seventh draft, but it's very arbitrary.
[Mary Robinette, DongWon] Yeah.
[Charlie Jane] What you consider a draft, what you consider… What's just another pass. But it definitely went through, even before I got an agent and made changes for the agent and then made changes… Went through editing with Tor. It had already gone through a bunch of different versions before that, for sure. Like it had already gone through multiple iterations. And, like, there were versions that were very different. Like people who get that PDF are going to be like, whoa. This book was going to be much weirder. Like, I had forgotten quite how weird it was going to be. Like the… There was a very different version where, like, the climax is very different. And the plot is much more elaborate. Like, I think I dealt… I pared back the plot a lot to try to reach something that was more kind of… Yeah.
 
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Well. Speaking of paring things back, okay, it is probably time for us to pare back to our homework. Did you have some homework for our fair listeners?
[Charlie Jane] Yeah. I mean, since we've been talking about tone and like having a narrator that kind of like pokes… Like, intrudes into the scene a little bit with, like, little touches of omniscient, I thought… Think it would be fun is take a scene that you've already written and, just like add, like, five or six narrative asides that are providing information that the characters couldn't possibly know in the scene. Just like little bits of information. It doesn't have to be, like, major reveals, it could just be, like, oh, and by the way, this guy ran over someone's dog and nobody knew, and he got away with it, or something like… Just little bits of information that there's no way that anybody… Any of the characters, other than maybe the character we're revealing a secret of, could have known. Or, unbeknownst to these characters, three blocks away, this was happening. I don't know. But make it at least relevant to the scene, not just like… Not… Not just like complete like random information, but stuff that's, like, relevant to the scene and hopefully adds, like, a little bit of humor, but also, just kind of a different perspective, a different way of thinking about what's happening in the scene.
[DongWon] I love that.
[Charlie Jane] And just see how that looks, see if… What it does to that scene.
[Mary Robinette] I think that's great homework.
 
[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 20.37: Deep Dive into "All the Birds in the Sky" -- Using the Lens of Why 
 
 
Key points: Why? Intent. Thematics, tone, tradition. Core idea! Discover the theme after writing the book, or decide the theme before writing? Conversations or canons? Exploring questions. Hospitality. 
 
[Season 20, Episode 37]
 
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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 37]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[DongWon] A Deep Dive on "All the Birds in the Sky" through the Lens of Why. 
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[DongWon] I'm DongWon.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Erin] I'm Erin.
[Howard] And I'm Howard.
 
[DongWon] So, this is our last segment in this deep dive that we've been doing with Charlie Jane Anders book, "All the Birds in the Sky." We are delighted that we have an opportunity to talk to her as well, so there'll be an interview of her coming up to sort of recap a lot of what we've been talking about, which will be especially relevant for this week's topic, because, in part, we are talking about intent. This episode is really about the lens of why, and as we've talked about earlier in the year, things we're focused on are the thematics of the story, the author's intent, the way she uses tone and tradition to sort of express the core idea of the book. Right? So we're hitting this one last, because we get to kind of sum up a little bit some of the things we've talked about before in terms of setting, in terms of timeline, and in terms of character to get a real sense of how is she assembling all of these into a legible, coherent thematic message in all of this. And so, I guess, my question for you all, and it's a little bit of a broad question beyond just this book itself, but when you're thinking about your intention of putting these thematics in a project, how are you approaching that and how do you see Charlie Jane doing that here?
[Mary Robinette] It varies for me, project to project. Some of them I discover the theme after I've written it. This book feels very much like a lot of the themes were decided ahead of time. Which is, I think, some of it is the friction between two opposing views of the world.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] But the other thing, for me, that I think… That I found intriguing was the… That friction comes from the stories that we tell ourselves about the world, and I see very deliberate decisions being… Book 1, book 2, book 3, like, the decisions that were to frame each of those, the decisions about the kinds of conversations the kids had, the tropes that Charlie Jane is using of here's a fantasy kid, here's the science fiction kid. I see those as being decisions that were probably made… Like, baked into the idea.
[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, this has an explicitly dialectical structure. Right?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] You have two opposing viewpoints that have to reach synthesis by the end of the story. Right? In this very classic Hegelian structure, to get too wonky about it. But you have magic on one side, or magic and community and connection, and then you have sort of rationality, science, cerebral kind of approach to the world. In this sort of, like, we can solve the big problems versus we need to be… Trying to solve too big of a problem causes more problems. Right? That's like sort of these two competing viewpoints. And sort of the tension between individuals within those viewpoints with the systems that they're embedded in as well. So, you have all of these different layers, but the fundamental thing is quite simple, of magic versus science. Right? And then as you dig into that, she's found ways to layer on complexity over and over and over again to each of those elements.
[Howard] Yeah, because the schools of magic have finally come together historically. You had the healers and you have the tricksters, and they were at war, and science didn't enter into it. That was… Those two were fighting. And when we look at the way, I think the character's name is Milton, his approach to solving things with technology in many cases is to buy up technological solutions that would be competing with the way he wants to do it. And so that dialectic between… Or that contrast, that conflict between science and magic is reflected within each of those realms.
[Erin] Yeah, I was thinking about… I was wondering for myself, thinking about, in magic, it's really explicit that there are these two things that had to come together. And I was wondering, like, what is it on the science side? It's harder… It was harder for me to parse. And as you were talking, I was thinking about, I guess, it's makers, because there's a lot of, like, makers and takers. Like it seems like there are the people who create things and then the people who acquire them from others. Which feels like it isn't exactly… Because the person they're taking from was also a maker, but, like, it feels like there is so much acquisition that it doesn't even allow for there to be a diversion within that side of things, in the same way that there is in the magical side of things.
[Mary Robinette] Well, I… That's interesting, because I actually thought that Serafina was in many ways representing the other side of science. Because she's working on the science of emotion with the robots. And that that is a thing that Lawrence specifically has trouble with, that he specifically has trouble with his own emotions and his relationship with this girlfriend and the types of science that he's doing are very, like, this is cool, this is flashy, let's go into another world. But emotions, that's this amazing almost witchcraft thing that the girlfriend is doing.
[DongWon] And it's the thing that changed Eunice. Right? To become a Peregrine, he needs that emotional resonance from having this connection to Patricia, and, yeah, I mean, there's also the magic she's accidentally putting into him, and all that. But the… On the magic side and on the science side, we get this microcosm view of what it is like for these two opposing things, and this sort of like uneasy synthesis that we get in the magic world of the healers versus the tricksters, that is really not a synthesis, it's just doing two different things at different times in a way that doesn't really work. You know what I mean? Like, the tension between the healers in the tricksters is like constant throughout that, and it was just such an interesting thing of her putting in this model of, like, here's the bad answer, here's what it looks like when you think you're synthesizing, but you haven't actually done the work to combine two different things.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] And then… I mean, there's a little bit of a thing at the end of, like, we don't see how relieved that work… The hard work of synthesis happens between magic and science happens at the end, it's a little bit like done magically, but, like, a gesture towards this future that is more resolved than what we've seen in the magical world or in the scientific world, because, again, there is that tension there too, between the emotional and the science or between the makers and the takers. Right?
[Mary Robinette] You just reminded me, and I don't remember the exact, like, that in… When Lawrence goes to MIT, to see the rocket launch, and there's this dude who says, "Do you want to come see this really cool thing that I did with the rocket?" And… I can't remember her name, but the woman who's showing him around…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Howard] Isabel.
[Mary Robinette] Isabel. And she's like, "What you did?" And this idea of the takers who take credit for things that other people did as opposed to people who are, like, look at this community that we're working in.
[DongWon] And we see that in Milton, too. Right?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] And Milton puts Lawrence in that role of literally parachuting in and being like, oh, your company [garbled] Right? And we see what that does to that guy over time as he becomes, like, a more depressed version of himself, but also this more cautious version and a little bit wiser than the other people in the room, when they're like, "Should we blow up the world? What do you think?" You know what I mean? And, like, it's such an interesting scene because we get this note… I think it's him who has that note of caution in that conversation. But, yeah. So, in seeing sort of like the way in which these dialectics are like structured throughout the book, there's also this meta-commentary thing that's happening here. Right? That we have these two opposing ideas in terms of magic versus science, but we also have this book is synthesizing multiple traditions. Right? It's speaking to fantasy and science fiction, it's speaking to genre and to literary. Right? And we've kind of touched on these a little bit.
[Mary Robinette] And I think it's also speaking to age groups as well.
[DongWon] Yeah. It's like middle grade, YA, and adult all at once. In terms of the book itself, sitting at these, like, crossroads between all of these different genres and categories, in a way that I think… Not to put you on the spot, Dan, but it seemed like it was a little uncomfortable for you, and maybe like how do you bounce off the book a little bit. I guess, like, when you're looking at where does this book fit into the conversation that a genre is… How do you blend those two things? Right? We see a lot of science fantasy these days. But what makes it feel more one than the other?
[Erin] This is not an answer to your question at all.
[Laughter]
[Erin] But I…
[Howard] But I'm going to say it anyway.
[Erin] [garbled] Another path.
[DongWon] [garbled] stupid.
[Erin] [garbled] But it's like one thing that I love… If you go to book readings with, like, literary people…
[DongWon] Yes.
[Erin] They'll always ask what works is your work in conversation with?
[DongWon] Right.
[Erin] And, interestingly, despite the fact that I think science fiction and fantasy are extraordinarily historically focused genres, I don't hear that question as much on the genre side of things.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] I think it's assumed that you're in conversation with everything, and therefore, why are you even asking. But I don't actually know the reason that is.
[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, I think there is a real resistance to that. Instead, in science fiction and fantasy, we talk about canon instead of conversations. Right? And, maybe I'm betraying the amount of time I've spent at poetry readings by trying to get us to talk more about conversations. Right? Because I think this book is in conversation with Earthsea and Diana Wynne Jones on the one side, and with, like, big idea science-fiction on the other side. Right?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] They're such like… The characters on the scientific side are so clearly inspired by old school science-fiction, of, like, we can fix the world by doing X, Y, and Z, and then this heroic fantasy, this magical school stuff on the other side. And so trying to blend those two…
[Mary Robinette] You're making me think of something that I noticed just recently at a literary reading, and I was the only science-fiction person there. And I noticed that everyone who started their readings, whether they were doing poetry or a novel, would start with here's why I told this story, this is what this story is about, here are the images that I was interested in. And then they would read it. And whereas I'm like, hello, we're on Mars. Okay, let's go.
[Chuckles]
[DongWon] Let's take a break there, and when we come back, I really do want to dig into this, like, why did you write this book question.
 
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[DongWon] Welcome back. I think… Right before the break, Erin and Mary Robinette, you were both talking about these questions that you encounter in the literary world that you don't necessarily encounter in the genre world. Right? And we're drawing really, like, broad distinctions between those, but I think it's a little useful in this case. The thing that I'm always thinking about when I'm considering a manuscript, or reading a book, whether or not I enjoyed it, is do I feel the author's perspective in the text? Do I get a sense of where they're coming from, and why they wrote this thing? And then sometimes I'll ask them that and people seem really surprised at the question. Right? In the way that you're saying of, like, you… In our spaces, we don't always step back and consider why. Do you think it's useful to think about why before you start writing?
[Mary Robinette] So, what's interesting to me is that I do, in novel length, at any rate, I do usually have a reason that I'm conscious of before I start writing the book. A Why. For short fiction, sometimes I'm just like [uhu] and there's a story.
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] And that's coughed out. But with novels, there's always a question that I have that I'm kind of exploring. Like, in the Martian Contingency, I just joked that I was, like, all right, everybody, we're on Mars. Let's go. But what I was actually interested in was what does it take to create a new community in a new place. And so that's my why behind the writing is this question. And I don't know… Like, what I find useful about it is that when I was having to make a decision between two choices for something I could do in a scene, it helped me narrow down to this is the one that supports that question I'm asking.
[Dan] In my own writing, I have found that if I don't know why I'm writing a story in advance, or if my why is very shallow, then the book will come across as very shallow. My cyberpunk books, the [cherry dog?] books, which I love, and I will happily write more of them. The very first one, I wrote it because I wanted to write cyberpunk. That was the whole why. The question I was exploring was can Dan write a cyberpunk…
[Laughter]
[Dan] Book? And I think that you can see that in it. It doesn't feel as deep or as interesting as the other books in that same series. By the time I got to the third one, it was very much me exploring my relationship with my teenage daughter. What is it like, how is that relationship formed, how is it maintained, how can it go sour, and that was what I was looking at, doing it through the lens of this cyberpunk adventure story. And so when I have a why am I writing this and what is this about in mind in advance, even subconsciously,…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Dan] The writing is more interesting.
[DongWon] Well, I think also, we've been saying this thing in terms of literary writers talk about who are they in conversation with, and then the why. I think a lot of that also is them looking back at what they have written. I don't know that they have those answers upfront. So…
[Dan] Yeah.
[DongWon] Just to be clear, we're not saying that, like, this kind of writer thinks about it ahead of time, this kind of… I think we are all unreliable narrators…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] Of our own intent in mind and all of that. And so I think sometimes it's figuring out what the hell did I write after the fact.
[Howard] I do not remember who wrote it, and it would take me a while to source it, but I remember the quote very well, which was the things that you think are your weaknesses are strengths. You're not ready to see your actual weaknesses.
[Chuckles]
[Erin] Mm... Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] That's a little close to home.
[Howard] I know. The first time I read that, I was like, oh, I hate that. I hate that so much. But on topic here, when I ask myself why am I writing this story, there's a spectator up in the nosebleed seats who says, whatever answer you come up with, that's great as long as it get you writing, but you're wrong. Because there is a real why there that you're not ready to look at yet. You need to be able to look at it before you finish the story. But be able to answer the question upfront. Be able to have a meaningful why that gets you writing.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Howard] But there's going to be something under that that's more important. And I know that sounds kind of whoo whoo and mystical, but…
[DongWon] You need to have a reason, it doesn't have to be the reason.
[Erin] Yeah. And I'll be honest, I really admire people, when I ask them, and actually a lot of genre people, like, who will sometimes say, like… I'm like, what are you writing? They're like, I'm writing about, like, grief and my cat. And I'm like, oh, my God. I'm writing this chick who sits in a room. Like, I…
[Chuckles]
[Erin] A lot of times, I am very, like, focused on what I'm trying to do and not why I'm trying to do it. And I really admire the ability to understand the greater why. I think a lot of times, for me, it's a little bit more like these are eight things that made me think about writing this story, and some of them are very silly, and maybe one of them is a little bit important, but probably not. And then, like, just kind of throwing that in a bag, like a bag of things, and shaking them.
[Dan] I hesitate to put words in Charlie Jane Anders mouth, and we can ask this question… We can ask why did you write this more fully when we do the interview with her. But the thing that kept coming across to me while reading it was that she was writing this book to kind of point out that magic and fantasy and science fiction were not all that different.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Dan] Both sides came up with genuinely terrible plans to save the world. Both of those plans had the same ultimate effect of destroying community as a concept. And the finale is we have to synthesize these things and bring them together, we're really not all that different. And I don't know if that is what she actually intended. I don't know if that is… Like, I was reading it almost as a response to our community.
[DongWon] Yup.
[Dan] Fantasy and science fiction authors fighting with each other.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Dan] And, again, we'll have to ask her, but that's how it felt to me.
[DongWon] It's interesting, because, again, I think if… Maybe her idea at the beginning… I mean, we're projecting. Right? But as a thought experiment, if the idea at the beginning was I'm going to write a novel about the fight between fantasy and science fiction. But at the end of the day, what the book is actually about, and the final reveal is that the dialectic isn't math and magic, the dialectic is isolation and community. Right? And that's the thing that is really being contested with is how do we connect to each other, when we have all these differences. But you're right, that each of their solutions on the science side and on the magic side was what we need to do is disconnect from each other…
[Mary Robinette] And…
[DongWon] That is the enemy.
[Mary Robinette] And we see that on a small scene level, again, going all the way back to the beginning of the book, that the… When Patricia goes and she talks to the parliament of birds, when Lawrence goes and he goes to MIT, they both have a sense of belonging in that moment, of something amazing happening. Lawrence, in particular, felt like… There's the line when they see the two minute… Or two second time travel thing, about, that it was like a… Being let into a secret club. And then that gets taken away from them. And so I think through the whole book, you're absolutely right, there is this sense of community versus isolation, community is healthy, isolation is not healthy.
[Erin] Yeah, I think that it's really interesting through this whole discussion, listening to different things that we've said about the why of this book is like, DongWon, you've talked about the soul of San Francisco, which I… Like, being fought over, which is something I know zero things about. And I… It makes me wonder, like, is it even… Is it important… I think it is not important, I will say that we actually know the why…
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[Erin] As long as it feels like there is a why, to what Dan was saying. And, what I think is interesting is sometimes people in science fiction especially will say, like, I didn't like this story because it felt like it was trying to teach me something. It felt like the theme was too strong and too easily understood. And I wonder if that is what it is. Like, if it… If everybody comes away with the exact same point…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] Then it feels like it's too heavy on the page.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] That there should be a little bit of a lightness that allows you to read a few different thematic elements into it, as opposed to just like banging you over the head with one.
[Mary Robinette] I heard Elizabeth Bear said this thing. She said the difference between a story and a polemic is that a story asks you a question and a polemic answers it.
[Dan] I was about to say the exact same thing. When I teach about theme, that's what I tell students, is that theme is a question that your book is going to explore, not necessarily a book… Not necessarily a question they're going to answer.
[DongWon] Well, I was thinking about the movie Sinners, because it's all I think about these days, and one of the things I really love about that film is it refused to resolve into an easy answer. Right? It presents you lots of easy answers along the way, and then one by one, knocks those pins down. Right? And then leaves you in this place, not of confusion, there's an emotional clarity. But then when you try to unpack it into easy lessons, it's very resistant to that. And I think one thing that is really lovely in this book is we start with thinking, oh, it's going to be X or it's going to be Y. And then the end result is something different. Right? And I… It still feels like… She sets up the shape of the answer, and that shape is still true, but the details all change along the way and really matter what those changes are.
[Howard] One of the questions that I ask myself, usually mid project, is not why am I telling this story, but it's why is anybody reading it. And you can take it tongue-in-cheek. Why would anybody read this? I'm working on a bonus story right now for the next Schlock Mercenary book, and I realized I was doing a fine job of telling the story, but part of the why with people reading it is because they want to look at the pictures. And I realized I needed to pay a little more attention to what was going on in the background. And then I started doing some worldbuilding in the background, and came up with this whole thematic idea of [Geiger Suisse] as the architecture. And one thing led to another, and I realized, oh, yeah, I really needed to ask that question. Because now the story is deeper. There's more going on, because I recognized that the reader doesn't just want to read the story that I have in mind, they want to look at something else that inspires, makes a sense of wonder, or whatever. And I don't have to ask or answer questions with it, I just need to put things in.
[Dan] Geiger Suisse sounds like a genre of music that I would deeply love, and never listen to.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] This is pretty accurate, I think. But something you were saying made me want to add yet another metaphor into the lens of…
[Unknown] Yes, please.
[Mary Robinette] Writing. Which I got from… I've been thinking about it a lot. Which I got from Amal El-Mahtar, where she did a keynote speech talking about writing as an act of hospitality.
[DongWon] Yes.
[Mary Robinette] Which it. And I've been thinking about it in terms of the why of it. That when you buy a house, when you decorate the house, when you buy furniture for that house, that you're serving the why of yourself. These are the needs I have, and that that is the writing of the story. But you're also thinking about who you want to be inviting into the home and the circumstances under which you want to invite them in. So, like, someone who knows that they have a lot of out-of-town guests is going to want to set up something that has a guestroom. Somebody who's like, oh, my God, please, no, no one into my house, is like we have barstools. But when someone comes into your home, like, you… Like if someone's coming in with a mobility device, you'll add a ramp, you'll rearrange the furniture. But if someone comes in and they don't like the color orange, you don't hide the orange. So, knowing why you're making changes to the story is about knowing how it serves you, but also how it serves the people that you are inviting into the story. And some of that goes back to the things we were talking about earlier, about providing context for people who wouldn't… Who come into the story who don't have the context, but you want them to feel welcome.
[Erin] I think that's true. I also think though I do want to say a word for stories that live in a place of discomfort. In which the point is for you to sit on furniture that you would never have sat on…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Erin] And not enjoy it and make that think about what this says about the way you sit in the way you stand in the world, and where you feel welcome and where you assume that you are not welcomed. And so I think there's something really exciting about hospitality, because hospitality can be a welcome, and hospitality can also be something that you are doing to someone. You can be inhospitable on purpose, in order for people to think about what it means in order to be hospitable to others.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] The thing I would say about that is, like, a haunted house is also an act of hospitality. People are signing on for the ride.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] although, you should communicate what this is. And so, yeah, I think sometimes, if I'm inviting people over, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to serve you my food, the kind of things that I eat and like to cook. And I'm not going to serve you something that you literally can't eat, because you're vegetarian or allergic to an ingredient.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] But beyond that, also, this is my home, it's my created experience that you're going to experience [garbled]
[Mary Robinette] And there's some people that you don't invite into your home.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] And also they're…
[Howard] Gordon Ramsay.
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] But also, like, I… When I… I have a massage therapist who will come to the house sometimes to help me deal with some stuff. And, yeah, I experience some pain.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] In that house and I am better for it.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] But that is, again, deliberate decisions and the why of it. So, but, the why at first is how does it serve you the writer, and then you start thinking about who else you want to affect.
[Howard] Which is why I say it hits me about mid project…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Howard] When I have to ask that question again.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So…
[DongWon] I love this topic. I feel like we could talk about this for a very long time, but we're going to leave it there for now. Thank you all for going along with us on this deep dive into Charlie Jane Anders "All the Birds in the Sky." I'm very excited to talk to her and find out more about her perspective on it and the things that she wants to talk about, in terms of the process of writing that book.
 
[DongWon] In the meantime, though, I have a little bit of homework for you. I want you to take some time away from your drafting as part of your writing process, and really sit down and think about your intentions. What is your why of this project? Why are you feeling like this is the story you need to write now, in this moment, as your next thing? And write that down. It doesn't have to be long, it can be a simple sentence. And then once you've written it down, take it out of your notebook, put it in a desk drawer somewhere, and don't look at it.
 
[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 20.36: Deep Dive into "All the Birds in the Sky" -- Using the Lens of When  
 
 
Key points: When? Flashbacks and foreshadowing. Chronoplotologically! Foreshadowing for tension and stakes. Beware of flashbacks in the middle of action scenes! Don't use flashbacks to relieve tension! Visible foreshadowing and covert foreshadowing. Foresahdowing as revision. 
 
[Season 20, Episode 36]
 
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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 36]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[DongWon] A Deep Dive on "All the Birds in the Sky" through the lens of When.
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[DongWon] I'm DongWon.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Erin] I'm Erin.
[Howard] And I'm Howard.
 
[Erin] And we are going to be looking today at the lens of when. Which is a little bit of a cheat, because when we did our lenses, we put where and when together. And we did, I think, a single episode about time. And I am also going to cheat in that this story takes place… This book takes place in multiple time periods, but I'm completely uninterested in that.
[Laughter]
[Erin] I'm not going to talk about it at all. Instead, what interests me is the use of foreshadowing. When I think about time, I think a lot about flashbacks and foreshadow. Where you are in the time of the story, the when of the story moment.
[Dan] Well, and it's interesting, because this book takes place in four different times, but they are not presented chronologically. There are a lot of flashbacks in it. And so she is using time very intentionally and very specifically. And just because something took place, like, in school for Patricia, doesn't mean that we're not going to hear about it at the end of the book, because that's when, emotionally, it needs to be there.
[Howard] So it's chronoplotologically… We start in grade school, and we end with them as adults. But when the plot requires it, we flashback chronoplotologically.
[Erin] That is not a word.
[Dan] I like how so many of our jokes are Howard saying a weird thing, and then we all stare at him, and then he explains it, and we go, oh, okay, actually, that makes sense.
[Laughter]
[Howard] That's not actually the definition of a joke. If it was a joke, we'd be laughing with me instead of at me.
[Mary Robinette] That's not the function of you in the pod… No…
[Laughter]
[Howard] And we're back to the lens of who.
[Laughter]
[Erin] [garbled]
[Howard] Let's go back to when.
[Erin] Yeah, let's go back to when. One of the things that I found really striking in this story is Theodolphus. I assume that is how you pronounce…
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[Erin] His name. When Theodolphus is introduced to show us the horrible future that will happen to these kids. I'm sure Theodolphus does other things, and he does, but this is, I feel like, a huge thing. Because it is a big flashforward. It is a big jump forward to show us this future, and to really, I think, set up how we view these two kids. And I'm wondering, like, how did that affect do you think your reading of the story to know that there was a future when that we are theoretically, like, hurtling towards for the rest of the story?
[DongWon] I mean, the foreshadowing felt really essential, because it creates tension throughout the book. Right?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] It gives us stakes in the relationship beyond just the general interest in the characters. Right? And I think a couple episodes ago, we were talking a little bit about the tension between a literary impulse and the genre impulse a little bit. And this is, I think, the connective tissue is in here. Right? In terms of what she wants us to do is pay attention to the nuances of a relationship, and she's going to give us this genre framing device around prophecy, around doom and the end of the world and apocalyptic kind of visions. But the thing that's also so interesting about what she does with Theodolphus is she goes through a great deal of work to humanize him. Right? He is an assassin, who knows all these different ways to kill people, but (a) he can't kill these kids, which makes him, like, a Sunday morning cartoon sort of villain in a funny way. But also, the way in which he genuinely enjoys being a guidance counselor…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] Added so much dimension to him, and adds so much pathos to when we see him again in the future as sort of this sad broken man on the street. Right? And sort of reiterating the doomed prophecy that he was given initially. Right? And so there's this thing of… He's a character who is there as an antagonist out to kill these children who we've grown very fond of, or hopefully have grown fond of, and… But because he's shown to be a creature of empathy and understanding, it add so much texture and context to the doom that he projects. Right?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Well, and also it's interesting, as you were talking about it, I was reflecting, this prophecy that he was given at the beginning. It's, like, actually, no, that is not when he was given it in terms of when we experience the book.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] So his scene is… Contains both a flashback and foreshadowing. Because we meet him after the kids have played their game about what are these people. And then the narration does a quick flashback. As it happens, she was correct. And then we meet him, and then he is another flashback to the going to look into the seeing hole or something like that…
[DongWon] Something like that, yeah.
[Mary Robinette] It… Like… How he gets the prophecy and then… But the prophecy is about the future. So it is this interesting back-and-forth. I think one of the things that I see Charlie Jane doing with this is choosing the moment when to flashback and flashforward. Choosing a moment where it's going to add to tension and help keep the story moving. Where I see the failure mode of this with a lot of early career writers, when I've done my own stuff, is the flashback happens, like, in the middle of a high impact action scene, and everything stops, because the story is now no longer moving towards a goal, it is looking at the foundation work.
[DongWon] One of the things I love about this book in general, and this comes… And I see this in how she uses time. So, flashforwards and flashbacks too, foreshadowing and things like that, and how she uses POV in terms of getting close to the character and out… Zooming in and out and all these things, is she does a lot of this in ways that break conventional rules.
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[DongWon] It's like, oh, you're not supposed to shift POV like this. You're not supposed to have just a character… Like, Theodolphus kind of comes out of nowhere as this POV character, and I was like, who's this guy?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] What's he doing here? And yet it's like it just works. There's so many things that she does because it works in the moment more than it works in the meta-structure of the book. And… Without disrupting the meta-structure of the book. I don't think she does that. But there is a priority that she has in terms of impact in the moment that makes this such effective storytelling for me.
 
[Erin] And, so I'm wondering, if you're trying to do this, and you're like, okay, I understand the chronology of the story, I understand the plot of the story. Now I'm going to try chronoplotology, which is [garbled] as we know, the practice…
[Howard] I love you.
[Laughter]
[Erin] Of doing that. Like, how do you actually figure out when is the time to flashback, when is the time to project forward in order to create or release that tension?
[Howard] I have found an almost ironclad rule for when not to flashback. And that is don't flashback as a tool to relieve tension by stepping away from the tension and telling another story because that's just going to upset people. Find a different tool to relieve the tension. If I have to explain something in order to move this other scene forward, I need to explain it somewhere else, rather than breaking tension in order to do it. So all I've got for you right now is my personal ironclad don't. Which is not going to be ironclad for anybody else.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I often refer to one of my favorite tools, which is the MICE quotient. That if… A lot of times, the flashback is because I need to start the story… This thread moving. But if I put that thread in where it belongs chronologically, it does not work chronoplotologically. Howard, I hate you.
[DongWon] Why have we done this to ourselves?
[Mary Robinette] It's a useful…
[DongWon] Actually, it is.
[Mary Robinette] Unfortunately, it is a very useful construction, I just wish it was easier to say. But, like, if we had done all of these things strictly chronologically, we would have been starting with Theodolphus and his vision about these kids. And that's not useful. So the way I think about it when I'm talking about the MICE quotient is it's about the sequence in which you are telling the story to the reader. So I look at which things are the things that I want to keep tension on, and then when do I need to introduce something in order to activate either existing tension or introduce tension that is moving forward. And a lot of that, then, has to do with additional decisions. The problem with giving a lot of advice on this is that we can kind of say here are the metrics to look at, but it is very much a season to taste.
[DongWon] Well, what's also really important about the way the foreshadowing in Theodolphus works in this first section is that it's not about… The stakes aren't the end of the world. The thing we're concerned about is that the world's going to end. The thing that hits us emotionally is that Patricia and Lawrence are going to be at war with each other.
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[DongWon] It's the fracture of the relationship that is the stakes. And what Theodolphus does to these kids, because he can't kill them, is to try to turn them against each other. Which is a thing that he's actually successful at doing, in large part, and is the thing that's most hurtful to these kids and to us, the reader, who's experiencing this journey. Right? So the foreshadowing works and is introduced at a point where we already care about their connection and now you can have stakes, because there's something at risk.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] Right? And the risk is how these characters see each other and how they feel about each other.
[Erin] Not to, like, over index on the idea that we're talking about lenses, but this actually makes me think of going to the eye doctor, and I promise this will connect. It's like when the eye doctor is, like, doing the is it better if you look through the left eye or the right eye.
[DongWon] One, two.
[Erin] What they do first is the big things, like, the big, like, how… Basically, like, how nearsighted or farsighted are you?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Erin] And that's the main lens. And then they'll do small adjustments to, like, astigmatism that are like… This is when they're like, is it one or two, and you're like, you're making this up. They're all the same.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Erin] But I think one of the things that I'm thinking about with this is figuring out what is the major lens through which you want your reader to experience the story? Here, as we talked about in talking about who, the major lens is who. And what the when does, it's those smaller things that actually make the who clearer or less clear as it needs to be for the story, but it doesn't take over as of when focused story would be, which would be to take us from the beginning into the end. And, speaking of taking us from the beginning into the end, we are going to take a break, and when we come back, birds.
 
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[Erin] Pickle!
[DongWon] See, reader, this is what we call foreshadowing…
[Laughter]
[DongWon] [garbled Erin] called the shots before the break, and we all just cocked our heads and looked at Erin, seeing how this was going to result.
[Mary Robinette] Cannot wait to see the bird die.
[Erin] So, the birds. In this story, there is a thing about time on the page, which is that the birds show up throughout the latter half to say, "Too late! Too late! Caw!"
[Mary Robinette] Too late.
[Dan] Yes.
[Erin] Too late! And so that's interesting, because it is… What is that? Would you consider that to be foreshadowing, is it… I mean, it doesn't end up completely coming to pass. What is the purpose of having the birds remind us of where we are in the world and the story as an in-story element.
[Howard] This comes back to the timing of introducing Theodolphus. We had to earn… Theodolphus had to earn the right to be prophetic. And he earned it by us believing that Patricia saw the tree and had magic and Lawrence created an AI in his closet. And so now we can believe that this guy had a prophetic experience. If we had heard it first, we wouldn't have believed it. Okay. Well, so now we've got unreliability of narrators set aside for a moment. We come to the birds, and we have earned, or Charlie Jane has earned, the story has earned the ability to convince me that when a bird says a thing, it's important and it's true and the bird might not fully understand what it's saying, but I'm supposed to feel something. And what I feel is an increase in tension, a little bit of dread. It's too late? How far too late is it? But if we had led with the birds, which obviously we couldn't, but if we'd lead with it, the story hadn't earned it yet, because it hadn't told us that the birds could do this.
[Dan] I don't remember if this works exactly, but I'm pretty sure it does. As the birds kind of replace Theodolphus. He disappears from the story, fairly abruptly. And it's after that that the birds start saying too late, too late. And I think a big part of that is we don't need the prophet anymore, because it's already happened. The thing he was prophesying is here. And so that's what the birds are, is, okay, this thing is happening now.
 
[Mary Robinette] The balls are falling. One of the things, as we're talking about foreshadowing, that I kind of want to draw attention to is that there's kind of two modes of foreshadowing that are happening. One mode is stuff that Charlie Jane is doing deliberately, thematically, and very visibly. Those are the things like the there's a prophecy, that kind of thing, that are very clearly on the page and they're addressed at the reader. And then there's also invisible or covert foreshadowing, which you don't notice until you read it a second time, like some of the things that I was calling out in earlier episodes where she's saying this is a thing that she had learned about Lawrence, that you couldn't count on him, that those… There's reasons that that comes back later, and it's not necessarily something that you would notice on the first time as, oh, this is a big thematic thing. When… Like, I've talked to early career writers who are trying to figure out, well, how do I put the foreshadowing in? And what I want you to know is that mechanically, the way you do that is that most of the time, the foreshadowing is you get to the end of the book and saying, what have I put on the table already and what ingredients can I use? And grabbing those and writing… So that a lot of the invisible foreshadows or the foreshadowing that the reader doesn't necessarily notice the first time around is what I think of as hindsight foreshadowing, which is usually the reader mechanically reaching back. I have found that when I have attempted to put the foreshadowing in, unless it is this very conscious, very visible… If I want the subtle foreshadowing that the reader… That every single time, I am telegraphing things in ways that are unpleasant for the reader. And that Charlie Jane is managing to do these two different types of foreshadowing without falling into this annoying, well, I could see that coming.
[Howard] One thing that may not be obvious to readers is that you are not reading books in the order, word for word, page for page, in the order in which they were written. With rare, exceedingly rare, exception, you are reading something where it's been written, and then the smarter version of the author has gone back and retroactively foreshadowed or whatever.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I'd be very interested to learn if Theodolphus was in the first draft of the novel.
[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, I… My suspicion is not. Right?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] But I think what's so interesting about the way foreshadowing works here, and this… Really going back to over indexing on the metaphor of lens here. Right? Is the way the foreshadowing and the way prophecy works in this is a lens into character. Over and over and over again. How the characters interpret the information they are given influences how they behave in the future, which reinforces their trauma, their rifts, their disagreements. Right? And so Theodolphus, a creature of violence, sees the violence coming at the end and cannot imagine a resolution other than the end of the world. Right? And then Patricia, being told that Lawrence is going to do this thing and that she must kill him, can only see that she must distance herself from this person who has distanced himself from her. Right? And so it's just like this repeats over and over again, and then, where the bird prophecy comes in at the end of the too late, too late, is simply Patricia interpreting that of oh, it is too late, it's too late to save the world, it's too late to do the things I needed to do. Lawrence is gone, I screwed all this up, and that is her own negativity, her own depression, her own cycle of trauma sort of repeating itself in that. When actually, the birds are talking about something completely irrelevant. I mean, to spoil the ending here, it's like the riddle from the birds… It don't matter at all. It's just her getting back to the tree. That's the important part. She was too late to come back and answer the riddle, but the parliament of birds are kind of just a bunch of idiots…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] As far as we can tell. You know what I mean? Delightful idiots, I love birds, but that seems accurate. I mean… And so it is this thing that because it is so closely filtered through the unreliable perspective of the character, we can see the way in which foreshadowing becomes yet another tool in her toolkit (A) to create tension between these characters and create that forward momentum of the plot, but to let us understand the perspective of these individuals and the flaws in that that drive them to make decisions that are quote unquote nonoptimal, in that way of, like, well, what if… Why didn't they just do X, Y, and Z, and that would have saved everything? It's like, because that's not how people work. People make flawed decisions on imperfect information for good reasons all the time.
[Erin] Yeah, it's like… It's interesting to me that both of the… Both the magic and the tech people are sort of… They feel like they are in a foreshadowing, like, they both project forward…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] What they believe the future will be, and then attempt to do something heinous to control it or change it or flee from it. And so a lot of the entire book is, in some ways, like what happens if you see the future and you don't feel like… You see it coming, and it feels like there's nothing you can do to change it. Which is where I'm going to reveal that I, an unreliable narrator, lied and do want to talk a tiny bit about the time in which…
[Laughter]
[Erin] This story is set. Which is that, like, it is set in a world that is not ours, but is very technologically similar to our own. And so I'm wondering, like, how does that… Do you think that changes the way you read the story, or, like, the disasters of the story, in that it feels like it could… It's not an impossibility to the when of our own times or was that just me?
[DongWon] The whole book is so heightened. Right? Everything about it is heightened from the way the kids experience their adventure, the emotions around the rifts between them, and then the disasters that are happening at the end. And yet, I mean, in the years since this book was published, we've all experienced natural disasters, we've experienced conflict, and we've experienced a lot of things that are hinted at or explicitly described in this book. Not in a literal one-for-one way, but a lot of what she's talking about here feels very familiar. And it's why my reading of it is so grounded in a specific place and time of, like, this is about this city's conflicts. This is about this particular thing that she was working through in her own mind of what do we do about the problem of this city? What do we do about this conflict between these communities?
[Mary Robinette] I think it's inevitable that you will read the book through the lens of whichever time that you're in.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] And having an overlap of when the book was written makes a lot of the parallels, I think, a little more clear. But also, as we move farther away from it, the billionaires destroying the world kind of situation, like, that again, that is something… This specific incarnation of it is something that happened years after Charlie Jane wrote the book, but it is still something that resonates, that connects. But when you read much older books, I think we still have those resonances and connections where we can draw parallels to where we are now or when we are now. So I think it's inevitable, and I think it's something that we can kind of overthink as writers too much.
[Erin] I was going to ask, do you think that's something we should… I know there's something people will worry about, especially people writing science fiction, near future, current versions of us is do you worry that what you're writing becomes dated? Do you worry that you're out of time, and then people will not relate to your story anymore?
[DongWon] I mean, that's the thing, is that science fiction is never about the future. Science fiction's always about the present moment it's written in. Right? William Gibson's Neuromancer feels futuristic even to us now, even though the technology is wildly outdated compared to what we have now. Right? You watch 2001: A Space Odyssey. None of our technology looks like that…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] At this point, but that movie still feels futuristic to us. And that's okay. You need to hit the feeling of futuristicness, but you don't need to be predictive about technology. And, I mean, frankly Charlie Jane did a pretty good… There's some called shots in here in terms of, like,…
[Mary Robinette] Yep.
[DongWon] Generative AI, billionaires who are willing to destroy the planet just so they can go to Mars. Right? Like, there's a number of things that are just called shots here, because I think communities that she was in, being a tech journalist for so many years, all those kinds of things, like, I think, gave her a certain perspective that let her call these shots. But also those things that are coming true in this moment, 10 years from now, who knows what they will be. But because the thematic resonances are so rich, I think even if those technological things don't work out, because this book is about a moment in time, as all books necessarily are, and letting that be felt, I think, it works in a way that I don't need it to… In the way that Neuromancer doesn't need cell phones to feel like crazy, cool, future tech. Right?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Howard] To address the question very, very specifically, when I am writing, I'm writing for an audience who comes from the same chronological context that I do. I'm not trying to write for a future audience. If I were trying to write for a future audience, I would write something very, very different. And I recognize that the audience who reads whatever I write today… Ah, you know what, about 80 percent of what they get out of what I write is something that they brought with them into what I wrote. In 100 years from now, in the unlikely circumstance that anybody's reading anything I wrote 100 years from now, the number will be closer to like 95 percent.
[DongWon] I think the thing that keeps it from feeling dated is when you lean into concepts and trends.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] Like big ideas, rather than like lingo and details. Right? Like if somebody was like [scibidee?] toilet in this, it would be like, whoa, that was a very specific moment. Actually, that would be a wild called shot from… If she wrote this back then. But…
[Chuckles]
[DongWon] If there were things that are just like so of a particular moment in slang, unless you're writing a thing that is intended to be a period piece. That's where you need to find the fine line between what's the idea of the thing versus, like, putting a specific version of the thing in your book. Right? So everything being a slightly abstracted form and, like, shifted one step of these tech companies and these like billionaires rather than being this is this person doing this thing for this company, I think that helps to keep it feel from… Keeping it from being too dated.
[Erin] Agreed. And now we have come to the time for the homework.
 
[Erin] So, pick a scene in your current work. And I want you to think about two moments. One moment in the past of that that is resonant still with that scene, and one moment that will happen in the future that is also resonant with that scene. And write two different versions of the scene. One in which the past weighs heavily on it. And one in which the foreshadowing of the future weighs heavily on it. And then see what the difference is.
 
[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 
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 Writing Excuses 20.35: Deep Dive into "All the Birds in the Sky" -- Using the Lens of Where 
 
 
Key Points: Place! Grounding? Context. Lived in. Details. Unnecessary details. Interactions. Senses. Familiar place and character interacts with place, draws reader in. Setting as immersion, but also as a lens on what the character thinks and feels. What is the emotional function of the place? Sense of wonder?
 
[Season 20, Episode 35]
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 35]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[DongWon] A Deep Dive on "All the Birds in the Sky" -- Using the Lens of Where. 
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[DongWon] I'm DongWon.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Erin] I'm Erin.
[Howard] And I'm Howard.
 
[Howard] And I'm here to talk about places. All the Birds in the Sky had, for me, some of the most memorable and grounding place moments in anything I've read recently. One of them was when Lawrence is taking his trip to, I guess it was MIT, to go see a launch, and someone tells him, oh, I'll give directions to your parents so they can find their way there. And someone comments that they'll never find their way there without specific directions. Because I remember a couple of occasions driving in Boston and complaining about it to someone and having them tell me, oh, yeah, the budget for the Boston MTA is handled like here's the amount of money you have. See how wrong you can make all the maps.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] And I bring that up because it feels like something that everybody who lives in Boston knows. And it's something that, by the characters brushing up against it in this flirtation with the location, we become very grounded in it. Oh, yes, that's Boston.
[Mary Robinette] What I like about that, actually, is that the way Charlie Jane is handling one of the tools that we have, which is context. Anyone who knows Boston knows that this is true, but she also provides context for people who don't know Boston. Which is a great trick that you can use with, like, secondary world fantasy. It's not just for real-world places.
[DongWon] Well, I mean, what I really love in the later portions of the novel is how lived in this vision of San Francisco feels. It feels like the author has such a deep connection to this place. And, I don't know if Ernesto's bookstore is real, and if it's inside the mall that is described in the book, but I believe that that's a real place that has been transformed in this way. I believe that these streets are laid out like this. And there's so many details from the bus stop to the parks to all these that feel very authentic to me in a way that is so detailed, that gives this backdrop, and this context, to the characters. Right? And so this fight between magic and technology feels really rooted in this fight over San Francisco that we've seen unfold over the last couple decades. I can't remember exactly when this book comes out, but, like, it is definitely in the heart of that conversation. Right? And so place is really informing the characters responses and goals in a very deep way.
[Erin] Yeah. I think something really interesting about, like, why it feels lived in is that there's always the unnecessary detail which is often the way we think about place. You know what I mean? It's like if you… I think sometimes the mistake you can make as a writer is to be like I'm describing the beach, so I'm going to talk about how, like, there's sand and waves and all the things that a beach contains. But a lot of times, it'll be, like, that's the beach where, like, every spring, the penguins, like, flood it for some reason. How they got there, I don't know. And leave behind penguin eggs, and, like, then you have to step over them. That's the thing that, like, if I went, I would remember about the beach.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] It is either something emotional context to me or an interesting detail that distinguishes it. Like, the mall where all the signs are in… Or half, or all the signs are in Spanish, is something that, like, you're going to remember that's going to distinguish it, and I love that she manages to put that in.
[Dan] Well, and so much of the description of place is couched in interactions. Yes, she's not just describing the bookstore, she's not just describing the restaurants, but giving real specific details about how the characters interact with those places. Two of the ones that really stood out for me were, at one point, they flagged down a food truck, which is so completely outside of my experience with food trucks that it immediately took me somewhere else, and I'm like, oh, this must be a thing that the author has experienced. This must be unique to that place. The other was they… I think it was Lawrence was eating fried chicken at some point, and just going on and on about how it didn't leave his fingers messy. And that's such a small little detail about this one specific chicken place that fries in such a way that it doesn't get all greasy. And those are such a brilliant way of letting you into that space.
[Mary Robinette] I also am just going to… That the interaction thing made me remember a line… When the kids are in middle school, and they run away to try to go to the river, because it makes a pew pew sound.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] And there's this line, well, this sucks. Lawrence squatted down to examine the river, nearly soaking his butt in the slushy ground. What's the point of ditching school if we can't go make laser noises from the ice? But the… That squatting down to examine the river, nearly soaking his butt on the slushy ground. Even if you haven't experienced that kind of wetness, that kind of… If you are someplace that doesn't get snow, that doesn't get sluggish, you know what it's like to have your butt wet from sitting on something that was unexpectedly damp. And I love that she gives us this very tangible thing that implies the rest of the world, and also through a way… Like with your fried chicken example, you know what it's like to eat fried chicken and thinking about the wonder of, oh, wow, fried chicken that doesn't make my hands messy. It's like… It just… It invite you in and implies everything else through one of the other things that we use for where, which is that… The senses.
[Howard] Yeah. There's a chain here that I want to make sure we've established the connections. Having a place that I'm familiar with in the book grounds me in the book. Having a character interact with a place makes the setting and the character work together. If you've got all three of those, to where I know the place and the character interacts with the place, then you've completed this link that has drawn me all the way into the story. And yes, Mary Robinette, as you were saying, the senses. I think of the spice house. The description of that house where the wood smells like things used in curry. The woods in the first chapter… If any of you have gone wandering in the woods as a kid, and been lost, there is an emotional element to a forest where you don't know which way the road is. And Charlie Jane connects us to that, and connects the characters to that, and uses where as a lens to pull us… Me, anyway, all the way into the story.
[Mary Robinette] I think the other thing that she does that's related to this is that she's also using the where, the place in the characters perceptions of it, to underline some of the major themes of the book. There's this line… I'm going to read you a fair bit here, but…
 
The parrots were eating cherry blossoms on the top of a big tree on the crest of a steep hill not far from Grace Cathedral. A half a dozen green birds with red splotches on their heads just tearing the ship out of those white flowers. Petals scattered across the sidewalk and the grass as the birds squawked and worked their crooked beaks while Lawrence and Patricia watched from the steep bank of the parklet across the street. San Francisco never stopped astonishing Lawrence. Wild raccoons and possums wandered the streets, especially at night, and their shiny fur and long tails looked like stray cats unless you looked twice. And he talks a little bit more, and then says, the only reason Lawrence ever saw these urban twists of nature was because he hung out with Patricia. She saw whole different city than he did.
 
And that, for me, is like cap… Like encapsulating the strength of their friendship and the crux of the book, that they see different worlds. And so, by presenting these different worlds, by having this moment where Lawrence is looking at the birds, but we know that he is not seeing the birds the same way Patricia experiences birds, is, I think, one of the fun ways that Charlie Jane is using where to support this theme that we've been talking about with the book.
[DongWon] Yeah. I mean, sort of encapsulating a lot of what we've been talking about. So, I think the mistake that people make when talking about setting or worldbuilding is that it's about immersion. Right? People think it's about immersion, and it is, to some extent.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] You want to, like, have your reader smelling, seeing, what do this feel like when they touch it. I think all that is incredibly important, but even more important than that is the lens into how the character thinks and feels about the world. Right? And that is everything from both examples, in terms of, like, the fried chicken and the slush are telling us something about Lawrence, in that he's kind of fussy.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] He doesn't like to be dirty. It would be so bad for him if his butt touched that slush, in a way that Patricia would be not notice it at the same level. He's thinking about, is there grease on my hands? Right? And the thing about getting, and what I love about what she has done here with San Francisco in the latter half of the book is… The way I talk about New York City is that it's haunted. Right? Because anywhere I go in New York City, after having lived there for the majority of my adult life… I no longer live there, sadly. But is I have so many memories of every neighborhood, and versions of that neighborhood, and versions of the person I was in the people I knew and who I went there with, who I was hanging out with then. All of these things are layered on any space I go to in New York, pretty much. Any neighborhood, any region. They're… I just have lived so much of my life there. Right? And so setting, I think, when I think about it is this leads into character and emotion, because it's about what they were connected to in that time, how the people that they are with… In the way that that scene you just described is changing literally how Lawrence sees the world. He is noticing the parrots of telegraph Hill. He is noticing the raccoons. He's noticing all of these different elements that he just would have been invisible to him without this person that he's with.
[Howard] Okay. I have a question that I want to ask all of you. And it's a tricky one, so we're going to wait until we've taken a break.
 
[Howard] I promised you a tricky question. It's so tricky that I have to explain it first.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] In many stories, the place that a thing happens, the where, is chosen because something… It had to happen somewhere. It's… They have to be standing on something. They have to be breathing something. San Francisco, in this book, is not that place. It is a character unto itself. But are there places in this book, and I can only think of one, are there places in this book that are used because the plot had to do a thing, but it doesn't really matter where it happened. And the only one I can think of is the flashback to Siberia. We had to have a thing happen that was bad, and it had to happen where there was methane [clathrate?] And so on and so forth, and so we picked Siberia. But it could just as easily have been Canada or Alaska or something.
[DongWon] I'm going to disagree with the premise of your question a little bit. And then I'll sort of circle back to answering the thing that you're asking. But, to me, I don't think that San Francisco is just a character of the book. I think the book is about San Francisco in a very, very deep way. Right? And it's about this sort of fight for the soul of the city in terms of this community and connection on one side, this pursuit of technological solutions on the other side. Right? This technocracy that has sort of taken over how they think about the city versus this person, Patricia, who is out there helping people who are living with AIDS, helping people who are homeless or being taken advantage of. Right? It's this real fight over what it means… And also just sort of the myopicness of what is happening outside of San Francisco that influences so much of the book, of, like, oh, yeah, that happened in Korea. That happened in Florida. That happened over there.
[Howard] I will concede that in my haste, I understated the importance of San Francisco.
[DongWon] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Howard] To the story. The question stands, though.
[DongWon] The question does stand, and I do think that it's one thing that's really interesting is when she does jump to other locations, aside from Boston, Boston and MIT feel really important, because that's like where a lot of his tech starts from and then ends up in San Francisco in the Bay Area. Right? But then the stuff that is happening outside that, whether that's Denver, Colorado, maybe it wasn't about Denver… Colorado or [Saguaro?] they all feel a little bit like, oh, this could be kind of anywhere. Because the book isn't about those places, the book is about this place over here. Right?
[Erin] Oh. I was just going to say that… You're talking about place as a character, it occurs to me that place being a character doesn't mean it has to be a particular type of character. So, like, in this way, perhaps, like, it is a… It is the thing that the two… It's like they're trying to, like, fight over in this divorce type of thing. The two sides are fighting over. Where Siberia, to me, feels like an antagonist. There are a few times in which the place is the antagonist. The Eastern European city that Patricia gets dropped into and can't understand anything that they are saying. The maze part of the school where it's like… It just… The way that that places described, it's just a litany of bad things that happen to you there. The maze isn't really described, it's like, and then maybe you get stuck in a whole or, like, then, maybe you fall off a wall, and, like, your flat, or whatever happens in the maze. And then it's like… But we don't ever see it, other than that.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] And so, maybe, the thing to think about a little bit is what kind of character is the place playing? Is it just a one off, is it a deep part of it, is it something that the characters are going to have to fight with or against?
[DongWon] Well, thematically, bad stuff happens when you don't have deep connections to the place. Right? All the places you're describing, the characters aren't connected to and that's where all the bad stuff in this book happens.
[Mary Robinette] So, I actually want to talk about one of the places that is a literal character, which is the tree.
[DongWon] Yup.
[Mary Robinette] And one of the things about the tree is that when she first sees it, it is just a place. The birds occupy it. And then the second time she comes across the parliament of… Where the parliament of birds, she… It is just the tree and her talking, and it's just a character at that point. But then when she returns to it as an adult and looks at it, she is aware of it as a place, but also as an entity. Which is, I think, one of the interesting things about this, because one of the… It's something that happens with the other characters. We see it happen with her and Roberta, that her relationship to them changes, so her understanding of them changes. And I think that also happens with place, but I think the tree is the only thing really that she experiences as a child and as a… Like that we… Has a continuity all through the thing, that her relationship to it changes.
[Howard] The tree functions as opening and closing parentheses. And if you include Lawrence's closet, and treat Lawrence's closet as Peregrine and then as Caddie, we have opening parentheses twice with the tree and the closet, and then at the end of the story, we have closing parentheses for the tree and the closet, Caddie, become one. That's a neat structure. And it's not there… I say it's not there for the reader. It's there for the reader, yes, because structures like this, even if you don't see them, they help resonate with you, they help you know that the story has ended.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Howard] But, as a writer, knowing that you are going to come back to a place helps you build the story.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Like, when she describes the tree the second time, or when she comes back to it as an adult with Lawrence, it says Patricia had forgotten how massive and terrible the tree was. But when we… It's described earlier, it is not described as massive and terrible. How overwhelming the embrace of its two great limbs, how, like an echo chamber the space in the shadow of its canopy was. She'd expected it to seem smaller, now that she was a grown-up, just as… Just a tree after all. But instead, she looked up at its great hanging fronds and its gnarled surface and felt presumptuous for even coming into its presence again. And that is such a different perception of the tree and her relationship to the tree than she has at the other time she experiences it. So this is, for me, one of those things, one of the lenses we talked about was the lens of time, and this is one of the things for me that… It's, I think, a great example of how you can use place and a character's place trip to show their growth and evolution.
[Howard] The roles of these places… There's a tool that I use a lot, which is what's the emotional reaction I want the reader to have to this chapter, this scene, this whatever? What is the emotional function of a thing? When I first began reading the story, the woods were grounding me. There was this sense of joy and comfort, of a child in the woods. Because I had that experience as a kid. Which, we then get to the tree, and it becomes sense of wonder coupled with a little bit of dread. Because I don't know what's going to happen. And in reading back over some of these places, I looked at the emotional functions of Siberia… I like the antagonist. The emotional function of the bookstore, the emotional function of San Francisco, which is manifold and hugely layered, and even so, I am understating it.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] But that tool, as I look at the lens of where from the perspective of a reader, I step back through the meta- and ask myself, okay, as a writer, how did she do this? How much of this is deliberate in the selection of place and the writing about place, and how much of it did Howard just happened to bring to the story because… Because Howard?
[Mary Robinette] I guess we'll find some of that out when we get to interview Charlie Jane later.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] Meanwhile, we should probably go on to homework.
 
[Howard] You know what? I have homework, and it's related to that thing what I just said. List the locations in your current work in progress. Next to each one, describe it story function. Is it there to ground? Is it there to evoke sense of wonder? Is it purely plot logical, a thing had to happen in a place, and so I picked this one? Is it worldbuilding? So make this list, the places in your work in progress. And then take a step back from it, and ask yourself if any of these places can be changed or should be changed, based on what you now know about them.
 
[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 20.34: Deep Dive into "All the Birds in the Sky" -- Using the Lens of Who 
 
 
Key points: Who? What makes up a character, what makes up our experience of them? History and community, motivation and goals, stakes and fears. How do they react to things? What is our proximity to them? 
 
[Season 20, Episode 34]
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 34]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[DongWon] A Deep Dive on "All the Birds in the Sky" -- Using the Lens of Who 
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[DongWon] I'm DongWon.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Erin] I'm Erin.
[Howard] And I'm Howard.
 
[Mary Robinette] So, what we wanted to do is take this… These things that we've been talking about, the who and the way there and why the when, and take one work and look at how a single work is deploying all of these things. Last season, we took different works to represent different concepts. This season, we're taking one work, because, in reality, when you're writing, you're doing it all in a single work. We're going to start with this lens of who, and I'm just going to briefly remind you of some of the tools that we were talking about. When we were talking about the lens of who, we were talking about, like, what makes up a character, what makes up our experience of them. There's the idea of history and community, motivation and goals, what their stakes and fears are, how they react to things, and then there's also our proximity to the character. Are we looking at them in first person or third person, third person omniscient? Those are the kinds of things that we're thinking about. There's the mechanics of it, the… Which voice we're using. But there's also the… Their… Our experience of them as a person. One of the reasons that I pitched this particular book to the group, All the Birds in the Sky, is because it takes a look at our two main characters, Patricia and Lawrence, at three different points in their life. There is their childhood, when they're like six years old. Then we see them in middle school, which, as we all know, is a brutal time. And then we get to see them… Actually, I guess it's four different times. We get to see a little bit of their teenage years. And then we get to see them as adults. So, one of the things that I liked about it is that there is this opportunity to talk about who and talk about… And we see the impact of their history as we move through the book. So I think one of the questions for me for you all is, when you are thinking about how these characters move through this book, I'm taking things kind of sequentially, when we think about history and community, how is Charlie Jane using those to shape our understanding of the characters through the book?
[DongWon] I love that we're starting with the lens of who, because to me that is the primary question of this book. Right? This book, more than anything else, is a character study about a relationship between two characters. And using the time jumps is such a beautiful way for us to get a sense of how things that happen to them in early childhood influenced the adults they became and the choices that they make. Right? So, seeing these lenses evolve over time is, to me, the joy of reading this, of this deep commitment to asking questions about who are these people and why are they the way they are. Which starts with… At home… It starts with their family lives. Who are their parents, who are their siblings? And the community that they're embedded in from the very, very start.
[Howard] There's a tendency for readers to… Just because this is the character who is my point-of-view character, and because these two characters have had a moment together, as a reader who is reading a thing that the author has just given me this moment, I will inflate the importance of that moment way beyond what in the real world that moment might be like. And that's one of the reasons why I so love a point later in this book where Lawrence and Patricia are talking, and they've kind of been… They've been apart and they realize they have a very different perspective on some of the things that happened as children. As a reader, I'm like, oh, that was hugely formative, that's critically important to the rest of the book. And one of the characters is like, ah, that was just this thing I did one time. And then someone else says that was the most important thing that you… You saved my life.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Howard] And I love that, because it grounded me in my experiences of growing up. I have memories of things that were super important to me, and the other people are like, oh, that was just a Tuesday.
[Erin] Yeah. I also think, though, one thing that I find very interesting about this book is, like, picking… What you're talking about, Howard, is like picking the moments, also, as a writer, what are the moments in your characters' lives that you choose to dramatize. And there's a moment later in the book in which… I can't remember which one of them says something like I realize that may be, like, I recontextualized my entire life through the lens of this relationship. And this entire book is that. The book actually recontextualizes their lives through the lens of this relationship. There are whole periods of their life that are really important that either get told way later, or, like the schooling part, like all the interesting parts where they were growing their separate selves, and instead, it's the moments when they are together which tell you what's the arc of the story that we're trying to read. And so, there's so many things that happen in your characters' lives that you can focus on, but this book knows what it's about, and therefore picks the specific moments that make that point.
[DongWon] Yeah. 100 percent. And then this also plays into the unreliability later in the narrative. Right? When they're young adults out in the dating world trying to build relationships, there are a couple moments that I really loved where someone would break up with the character or the character would break up with somebody. I'm thinking about this with Patricia and Kevin, I think his name was, the guy that she was seeing. Where she was like, yeah, I don't know what this relationship is. Is it a relationship? We keep trying to talk about it and not talking about it. And then he breaks up with her, being like, hey, I tried to talk to you about this so many times. You wouldn't talk to me about it. And just seeing that inversion, and… Because we have all this context of where she comes from, we understand why her communication style is like this, we understand the trauma that she went through, this like rupture she had with her best friend who was the only person who saw her, and then ran away. And just her fear of commitment makes so much sense. And being able to put us in the moment of that inversion, of her having to step back and be like, oh, no, I see it now of what happened here. I think would have been a hard trick to pull off if we'd just been in this story about adults. But because we know what her relationship with Lawrence was like as kids, we can see the echoes of that reverberating throughout that. And Lawrence's relationship with his girlfriend, that he like puts on a pedestal, which is like a little bit how he related to Patricia when they were children. And, like, all of these different elements. And it just creates all this really rich, interesting context for us to understand relationship dynamics of young twentysomethings in San Francisco in whatever era this is. I don't know. That really, really works for me.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And there's something that Patricia says when they're in their middle school years. In narrative, this was a metaphor for how it was with Lawrence, Patricia realized. He would be supportive and friendly as long as something seemed like a grand adventure, but the moment you got stuck or things got weird, he would take off. And it is… I don't know that that is necessarily true of Lawrence all the time, but I think that that is how she has assigned him in her brain. We…
[DongWon] It makes the heartbreak later makes so much sense.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. The other thing that struck me as I was reading was that both… Because I had read the book initially, and then I was doing a reread to prep for this. And one of the things that I was struck by was that both kids have this incredibly special moment when they're little, when they're six, where they feel… Or not six. Patricia's is when she's six, Lawrence is a little bit older. But where they feel like they belong. And that they are seen and they're understood and that they have a gift and that they are special. And then they spend the rest of their life trying to get back to that place. And that is frustrating, like watching the frustration and how that manifests and they're both… They both are pushing against it in different ways because of the… Who they are, but they're both pushing against it… Pushing against the same kind of thing.
[Erin] I think that's a really interesting lesson to maybe take from this is that… We've talked before, I believe, on the podcast about sort of essence expression, like what something is at its core versus how it's being shown in the world right now. And I think sometimes it can be really easy as you're trying to make a story or a book go forward to get really focused on expression. What is the character's goal in this moment? What are they trying to achieve, did they achieve it? Did the thing blow up? But why they are doing it is really interesting and also, like, should be really consistent, I think, or have a real reason for changing. And so I think sometimes, like, the character arc can become an arc of action as opposed to an arc of reason for action, and what's interesting about this is this book really focuses on all the things they do are, like, watching a friend, like, make the same kind of mistake, but differently. It's like if you know a friend who has a specific, like, dating habit. They date different guys, but it's like the same thing. You're like, oh, you're doing this again, but in a slightly different way.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Erin] Like, you learned this lesson, but not the underlying lesson.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Erin] And I think that is the thing that's really interesting to focus on, and to take away as a writer.
[Mary Robinette] There's another thing that Charlie Jane does that I thought was kind of subtle and interesting. And I will talk to you about that when we come back from the break.
 
[Mary Robinette] Welcome back. There's this thing that she does where there are multiple times where Lawrence and Patricia define, even though, like, one is fantasy and one is science-fiction, where they define the thing that they want is the way the other one moves through the world. So there is the example of this is I wish I could sleep for five years and wake up as a grown-up, except I would know all the stuff you're supposed to learn in high school by sleep learning. So that's a science-based solution for her problem. But then Lawrence has a magic based thing, I wish I could turn invisible and maybe become a shapeshifter. Life would be pretty cool if I was a shapeshifter. And it's the idea of, like, even though they are very different people, they are the other… They want what the other one has. And they both see the other one as you have it figured out. I wish I could have it figured out like that.
[Howard] I think one of the most powerful things that Charlie Jane accomplishes with these two characters, and it relates to what you just described, in the world building, these characters have to see the magic, see the science-fiction. And the way they are differently embedded in that universe is… I found it very, very immersive. From the first chapter, where Patricia is in the woods, I was there. And I think that's… That use of POV in order to communicate the world building was very, very well done.
 
[Mary Robinette] Let's actually talk about that a little bit more, because that's one of the other lenses that we use, is that proximity to the character. That's something that I think Charlie Jane plays with a fair bit through the thing, that there are places where we go omniscient and all the dialogue is reported. And then Patricia said… Not and then Patricia said. And then Patricia told him about everything that had happened. But there are other times where we do go deep into it, and we live it, and we have all the tactile experiences. What do you think about the ways that that's being manipulated?
[Dan] So, one of the things that impressed me the most about this book was the way that she was able to immediately, in one or two sentences, tell me exactly who the side characters were.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Dan] Even though we never really get close proximity to any of them. This is so focused on Patricia and Lawrence, and to a lesser degree, Theodolphus. But I remember being so delighted early on, in like the first or second chapter, when she illustrates this beautifully that both kids are messed up by their parents, and have a terrible relationship with their parents, but into completely different ways. And if I remember correctly, it's Lawrence's parents are kind of distant and don't pay a lot of attention, whereas Patricia's parents demand perfection. And we just get that in, I think, one sentence each. And it's so powerful when you immediately know exactly who these characters are, and why they are problematic for our leads.
[Erin] Well, I also wonder… It's funny, thinking about POV, like how… Like, if you were an outsider, like, looking at these parents and kids, like… There's something very childlike in the way they perceive the punishment. Like, do they really send Patricia to her room for like 18 years and only passed sandwiches under the door? Maybe they did or maybe… But that also sounds like something like a kid would say. Like, and then for like a year, I had to like only eat sandwiches with one bread. And, like, how much of that is in the POV of a child…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Erin] And how…
[Howard] Lady, that was 15 minutes.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Laughter]
[Erin] Exactly. You had to go to your room for half an hour. It was not like… But I don't know. Because…
[Howard] Yeah.
[Erin] We're so in the POV that we so get the other characters through this specific lens. And I think that's why they come through so clearly. Because the characters, the main characters, have such a very specific point of view on their parents or on the adults in their life that it comes through super clearly whether or not it's objectively true.
[DongWon] Well in… This goes back to the thing I was talking about earlier, in terms of the inversion around understanding what their relationship was. Because that's a tool of proximity. Right? We're zoomed in so close on each of their experiences of this relationship that we're getting this, like, 20 something I don't know how to date kind of perspective.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] And we're embedded in that until suddenly we get that revelation, and then we zoom out. Right? Everything just sort of snaps into focus in this relationship in a very cinematic way where we can look back on the relationship that's been described to us and then, like, oh, yeah, that is how she's been treating that guy, or oh, yeah, he's doing this thing to her, and her experiences of what the hell is happening the entire time. Right? And so I think that is such a masterful use of proximity and creates this feeling that I couldn't shake throughout the book where I wasn't, like, experiencing characters, but, like, I was like, oh, these are like my friends, was this feeling that I had throughout, which was, like, an interesting sensation, and they felt like people I was in community with rather than people I was learning about. And I think it is a little bit of that, trying to parse the thing that your friend is telling me, they were like complaining about their relationship, and you're like, but this is your fault, though? You know what I mean?
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[DongWon] Like that little bit of a thing, of trying to be like figure out how to help your friend, and I'm doing that same math with like how to help Lawrence with this situation? How do I get him to chill out about this girl that he's dating so that he doesn't ruin it? And you're like, my gosh, he's going to ruin it. And the only way he's going to figure it out is by ruining it. So…
[Erin] And, it's funny, is I also see this about the entire world. So we'll probably talk about this more in one of the other lenses, but what I think is so… What I found really interesting and what I highlighted the most in this entire book were all of the horrible things that were happening in the world…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] That were asides to the characters' lives. They're like, and then that thing in Haiti, and… I don't know, the thing and the heat and the… And they would just mention it among, like, things that were impacting… They're like, I can't go on a date here because, like, I have to remember to not flush the toilet because of that water crisis…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] Back to my date. And so, it's so hyper focused in some ways on their own lives as we all are, that they let the broader parts of the world, which we mostly get in omniscient kind of asides go, until they cannot let it go anymore because it intrudes on their worlds.
[DongWon] The one that really stuck out to me was in the moment where Patricia and Lawrence are like, finally, like connected and they're in the middle of that sex scene… That's very intense and we're in their experience. There's a sideline about the, like, and on the television they're talking about how superstar whatever the name of the star was obliterates half of the East Coast. And I went, damn, that's a really broad way to phrase that. And then forgot about it, because of the intensity of this scene. And then she gets the call that her parents are, like, trapped and dying in this, like, thing. And it's like, oh! Obliterate was used literally and intentionally. They just weren't observing this catastrophe that was happening outside their window. And it's like you feel the heartbreak of experiencing joy while the world is falling apart around you.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And that is… Again, that use of coming in and back out again.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] With the proximity is so interesting. Before we wrap up, I did want to touch about the motivations and goals and the stakes and fears, because… And I realize that I am wrapping like three lenses all into one…
[Chuckles]
 
[Mary Robinette] But it informs the way they are reacting through the whole book. How much do you think their motivations, goals, stakes, fears are set up in the beginning and consistent through the book, and how much do you think they change?
[Howard] Um… In the beginning of the book, these were kids who were trying to figure out how to interact with the world, how to survive the world, and they arrived at two completely different toolsets. By the middle of the book, I feel like they've both figured out the world is broken and there are things that they can be doing to help. And they have completely different toolsets. And the fact that they have different toolsets and blind spots… The inability to see what someone else's toolset might provide leads to the conflict at the end where these two characters, who are both the good guys, are each other's antagonists.
[Mary Robinette] All right. I think what you said about how they… One of the things for me was that they… It sets up that they are trying to survive N, and that that's something that they are constantly trying to do. But in the early part of the book, because they are children, their reactions are not how do I survive this thing that is happening to me. And that as we progress through, their reaction becomes how can I influence things so that those things don't happen to me or anyone else again?
[DongWon] I think my one critique of the book, or my major critique of the book, I think comes to some of the stakes questions. Right? Because we have these world stakes in terms of the world is getting worse, and we have this sort of tech bro attitude of, like, I can save the world, in which… The Sam Bankman-Fried kind of perspective…
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] Which we've seen the flaws of. And we have this other perspective from her coming from this more holistic magical thing. Sometimes that felt a little… Like, there's a version of this book that I would have really enjoyed which is a contemporary realist novel about these two kids growing up and then living in San Francisco and experiencing this tension that is really core of what's going on in this city and has been going on in this city, especially when this book was written. And so sometimes, I felt a little disconnected to me from the supernatural state. Right? Because we have this thing where the tree at the beginning of the book asks this question, and that it establishes as a major stake. We have the AI that he builds in the closet. That's established as a major stakes. And so by the time those two things come back in, I've been thinking about them this whole time, and kind of wondering where they are, and knowing in the back of my mind that those are the stakes that are going to matter at the end of the day. But there a little disconnected from the moment to moment action. Right? And, like… They are connected to the characters motivations in that they are central to the questions that they are interested in in terms of conductivity, community, helping people, in terms of Patricia, and these technological solutions and sort of abstract ideas in terms of Lawrence. But in the specificity of those two things which are important for the end, they disappear for a very long time. But because they're highlighted at the very beginning, I never forgot about them. So there was a little bit of friction around the stakes of the story in that way. Even though the emotional stakes were so well rendered and so established, the plot stakes felt… I felt a gap…
[Howard] I agree. I look at that problem and I think, dang it, Charlie Jane Anders wants me to read smarter than I want to read.
[DongWon] Yeah. I think that's true in so many ways. What I loved about the way the character interaction works in this book feels very queer to me in a specific way, because it is about holding empathy and understanding for the characters, while also holding them accountable for the things that they're doing. Which is a thing I think we strive for in the queer community. I think we strive for it in a lot of communities, but it's a thing that I observed, and something about the way the dy… Social dynamics work and the way the characters talk to each other felt so familiar to me in a certain way that I really appreciated about this book. Because I think she is asking a lot of us to hold in our heads, here's who this character was as a child, here's who this character is now, and keep that empathy, while also holding them accountable.
[Mary Robinette] [garbled] So what's interesting, and I see that Dan has something…
[Dan] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] That he wants to say, but I'm just going to slip this in. One of the things that I particularly liked about the tree and the AI was that both of them were things that would be explained away as childhood make-believe. Because I remember Eliza, the computer, and the way ChangeMe is described at the beginning does not seem any different than Eliza. Right? But they are pretending that she's… That this is real and this is… And so I liked the tension.
[DongWon] For the context, Eliza's one of the first chatbots which was used… Claimed to be used as a therapeutic tool because it was responding in a humanistic way, but it is just canned responses.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah, it's just… Yeah.
[DongWon] So… Wish [garbled]
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Also, ChatGPT. That it gives the illusion of intelligence, but it isn't actually intelligent. The thing that happened to her as a child could have been a dream that she had.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] And so I liked that… You describe it as stakes, but for me it falls back into the history thing. It's that there's an imaginary friend that they both had that is shaping a lot of the decisions that they make. But then it turns out maybe not so imaginary.
[Dan] Yeah. So, I'm glad you brought up critique. Full disclosure, I did not love this book. I'm kind of the dissenting voice here on the podcast to an extent. But specifically talking about what the stakes were, one of the realizations that I had partway through, and maybe this is a very different interpretation than some of the others had, is that what was going on in the world was really kind of beside the point. And a lot of the stuff with the tree and all of that, those stakes were there, but the real core of it was just who they were as people. And every time I would say this book is so boring, nothing is happening, I would have to stop and say, no, actually, there's a lot happening. It's just all internal to who they are. This is not a book where there are big action scenes. There are action scenes in it. But it is a book where… Like, the breakup with Kevin was a really big deal. And these kind of smaller moments were actually, for me, the real stakes of the book is who these people are, and what are the milestones of their progress on to becoming somebody different.
[Erin] And I think when it comes to stakes, one of the things that I took away from it was the idea that, like, you want to think that your life is so important and maybe it isn't. Even though these characters are in fact important to the world in some way, they felt like they were being… It felt, for me, for a lot of the book, that they were tools of greater movements they didn't understand. They were tools of people who had big plans that they would never tell them, and so they were just trying to, like, do the best they could to get from moment to moment of happiness, because everything they were doing was at somebody else's behest. Like, both of them were working for organizations they didn't fully understand, doing things that they didn't fully get, until it was happening. And so, I felt like in some ways maybe it's like… And there's all that thing about aggrandizement and, like, whether or not you're supposed to think you are the driver of the story or not in a story that's so focused on two characters. It's like this interesting contrast between how much does one person change the world and how much are they just trying to remain in the world as it changes around them.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I think that one of the things that worked for me was that I did come in reading it as a character story. And so, because there were so many other things in the world that were happening in the background, the fact that other… That action that I was interested in was also happening in the background, just kind of felt like part of the texture. That, for me, this was two characters who both just wanted to belong, and they also wanted to stop feeling insignificant.
[DongWon] One thing that… And I think Dan and I are sort of coming at the same critique from different directions. I think we had different eventual emotional responses to it. But one simple rubric I have, and this is very reductive, so don't yell at me, but, like, is the distinction between literary fiction and genre fiction is often around this idea of literary fiction being primarily about portraiture, and genre fiction being primarily about building out a model. Right? It's about asking a question and answering it. Right? And this novel is, I think, attempting to do both. In that it is writing the literary and genre line in a certain way, and I appreciated its instincts to try and do both, but I think there's a little bit of friction between those, in terms of the overall question of how do we solve world problems. It's about connection, it's about integration, it is about, like, organic [garbled] network kind of things, which is the eventual… hybridizing community approach and technological approaches. Right? That is sort of the thing that she's arguing for at the end of the book. But then the substance of the book is primarily about character portrait and relationship portrait of two people feeling and bonding and coming together in this thing. And that becomes the metaphor, that becomes like the synthesis in this dialectical approach of these two different things. That relationship encompasses those two things. But what I loved about the book was primarily the literary project of portraiture.
[Mary Robinette] I'm just going to say that I wonder now how much of that is intentional. Because what you just described is actually what's happening in the book.
[DongWon] Yes.
[Mary Robinette] The conflict between fantasy and science fiction, the conflict between two genres of understanding, the technical and the touchy-feely.
[Dongwon] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] And with that, I think it is time for us to give you your homework.
 
[Mary Robinette] So, for your homework, since we are focusing on the lens of who, and one of the things that I found most compelling about these two is how they are shaped by the other person. Who does your character envy? And why? And what action can they take to act on that desire?
 
[Howard] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 20.33: Raising Children as a Metaphor for Writing
 
 
Key Points: Relationships change over time. Do your best, but you can revise a book, but you don't edit a child. As you grow as a book parent, you may relax your control. Agents and editors as aunts and grandparents may be able to listen to your book. When a book leaves the house, it has its own relationship to the reader. Presume competence. Grieve, then forgive. 
 
[Season 20, Episode 33]
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 33]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[DongWon] Raising Children as a Metaphor for Writing.
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[DongWon] I'm DongWon.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Erin] I'm Erin.
[Howard] And I'm Howard.
 
[Dan] And, we have been doing this series of episodes where we talk about different metaphors for writing. And when this series was pitched to me, the first thing that came into my head was, oh, I will do an episode about raising children. And I have regretted that ever since.
[Laughter]
[Dan] Because, first of all, only two of the five of us have children, and, second of all, there is a fundamental difference, I think, in how we think about these two things. I do think that this would be a valuable way to think about writing. But, when we raise children, we have clear goals for them. But they tend to be very general. I want my kids to grow up and be happy and successful. But the real joy of raising children comes in watching them express their individuality and meet those goals in very unique and different ways. And we could look at media and how many movies have been made, how many books have been written, about parents that have much more specific goals for their children and the children react, and they have horrible relationships with each other… Because I don't want to be a doctor, dad. Just because you are.
[Mary Robinette] This actually sounds like a great metaphor, I think.
[Laughter]
[Howard] Dan, you were telling us at breakfast that one of your sons had just returned from studying…
[Dan] In Taiwan.
[Howard] In Taiwan. Which is fascinating and wonderful and cool, and my memory of that child was him jumping up on the table and shouting, "Pepsi, Pepsi, gun gun gun."
[Chuckles]
[Dan] Yeah.
[Howard] Okay. And these are two very different things, but it's the same person. And your process for raising that child has likely changed.
[Dan] Yeah. I don't have to keep him off the table anymore. It's great.
[Chuckles]
 
[DongWon] Just one thing I want to say at the top of this conversation is we are very intentionally not prescriptive about writing advice.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] We are, however, saying there's only one way to raise children, and that…
[Laughter]
[DongWon] No. I mean, Dan, only… I mean, I don't have kids, I would never be in a position where I'm going to try and tell a parent, here's how you do it. But I think in the way that we talk about writing, there's a lot that we can take over… Take from individual processes, individual experience, and sort of extrapolate from them. So, anything that we say about how to raise kids…
[Chuckles]
[DongWon] Don't take it as a prescriptive, specific list of things you must do.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I mean, my child is covered in fur and is actually a cat.
[Laughter]
[Dan] Well, we have two dogs at home. So most of my children are covered with fur as well.
[Chuckles]
 
[Dan] No, but, like you said, Mary Robinette, I do think this ultimately is a very good metaphor for how writing works, because we've all experienced this, where we're trying to write in a certain way, and the characters have a mind of their own, and they go off in a different direction. Or the book itself takes a different tack. When we write it, we realize it's about a different thing than we thought it was about when we started it. And this happens all the time. And so, why does this happen, I guess is my question. It seems so ridiculous from the outside to say, well, what do you mean the characters have a mind of their own? You're the one writing them. And yet every author can attest that that's true.
[Mary Robinette] I'm not actually one of those.
[Laughter]
[Dan] Interesting. Tell me about that.
[Mary Robinette] But I think it has to do with what you talked about a little bit at the beginning, which is that you have this intention. And I also think that it has to do with my own personal background as… Coming out of theater. So when I do have a character that's not doing what I want them to do, I recast them. And you can't recast a child. But, having said that, the reason I was like, oh, this is a really good example, is that I may have an intention, but my relationship with the book changes over time. And so, as a result of that, my understanding of what I want that book to be also changes. Which, for me, is different than my characters have a mind of their own.
[Dan] Yeah.
[Howard] One of the healthiest attitudes that I've found with regard to writing… Writing. Yes, but also mostly raising children, is I'm going to do everything I can to provide the setting, to provide the inputs, to provide whatever needs to be provided, so that this child will grow into someone that I like and who is also happy and able to succeed and so on and so forth. But at the end of all that, they have the agency to choose what they are going to choose. And I have to be willing to say I've done what I could, I've done my part, I've done my best. The fact that they're able to express agency has to be enough. Whereas with books, if all my book can do is choose for itself… Okay, that's wrong…
[Chuckles]
[Howard] If my book is wrong, then I get to go back and try again.
[Mary Robinette] Well, this is one of the things that I see with people who have more than one child. So, with the first child, they're extremely precious and very like, here's how we're going to do things. And the second child, they're kind of like, well… Good luck.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] And the third, they have three or four, where it's like, all right, I mean, you won't be eaten by wolves. And I think that happens with writers, that the writers who have only the one book… On your first manuscript, you get very tight and very controlling and very fearful, because you're going to mess it up somehow. And that as you go along, you realize, no, actually these things have a lot more resilience. If I let it read, if I let it do its own thing, it's… I don't have to be that controlling. So I think the idea of kind of relaxing your control over the books as you grow as a book parent is probably useful.
 
[DongWon] As I mentioned, I don't have my own kids, but I did have the great joy of being able to be an auntie to a couple of children who are now full adults. And it's funny, it strikes me as that is a little bit similar to my professional role. Right? Where I'm not involved in the process at the beginning, but I do get to drop in from time to time and encounter them as they are. Right? And so I was able to have very different relationships with those kids than their parents did, and got to be sort of the one that's like, yeah. I see you. You're here, this is the thing you're interested in. This is who you're trying to be. And I'll support you in that or listen to you on that or, like, just talk you through whatever crisis is happening right now that you can't talk about with your parents for whatever reason. Right? And, I think, what you're saying, Howard, there is a lot of truth to it, in terms of you can edit a book in a way that you can't edit a child…
[Chuckles]
[DongWon] But there's also a reckoning process. I think that happens is an author of having to confront what the book is. Right? Which may not have been your idea that you originally had when you went out with it. But a lot of times what you do is you encounter the book, having written it, and say, okay, what are you now? Right? Who did you grow up to be? And then, now, how do I respond to that and help you achieve those goals? Right? And so, as an agent and as an editor, I get to come in and say, "What was your intention here? What was your vision for this book? And how do we align that with what the book is?" Right? And that is so much the editing process.
[Howard] The quote I come back to all the time, Ralph Vaughan Williams, upon hearing a symphony that he'd written performed, responded with, oh, I don't know whether I like it, but it is what I meant.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Howard] I love that so much. Because, yeah, he acknowledges that's what I wrote, that's what I meant. I don't know if I like it, but…
[Mary Robinette] I just want to check. Are you using music as a metaphor for raising a child and for writing about books?
[Howard] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] Okay. Good.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] It's the dobosh torte of…
[Laughter]
[Howard] [Fourier?] cakes. Sorry, now it's food.
[Dan] This is our turducken of writing…
[Laughter]
 
[Dan] I love what you said, DongWon, about being able to come in from the outside and, maybe this is the exactly what you said, but it's what I got out of it. Coming in from the outside of that process, you can often see more clearly what's going on than the author themselves. Which is, absolutely, I think, true of children as well, and it's one of the reasons that we rely so heavily on some uncles and grandparents and neighbors and stuff, because when I see my children, I… It's my first instinct, to see what I have planned for them. And it can take a lot of time and a lot of emotional intelligence to kind of meet them where they are and see them for who they are trying to be, rather than who I want them to be. And, going back to writing, that's the same reason I use a writing group. That's the same reason I rely so heavily on my agent, is they can kind of see what the project is, rather than the idealized version I have of it in my head.
[Mary Robinette] And I will say that I think one of the things that is most helpful for… Is not the auntie who comes in and says, well, this is how you should raise your child. That's someone that you are like, nah, I'm not going to hang out with you.
[Dan] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] But the ones who listen and ask questions, whether of you or of the child, those are the ones who can actually be helpful, because they are trying to meet that child or that book where they are.
[DongWon] And meet the parent where they are. Right?
[Mary Robinette] And meet the parent. Yeah.
[DongWon] A lot of my job was supposed to be as the nonjudgmental third-party who listens to everyone complain about each other.
[Erin] I have a burning question about writing and parenting that I must ask you…
[Chuckles]
[Erin] After the break.
 
[Erin] Okay. We are back. And I am so excited to ask this, because when you talked about like seeing your children for who they are, there's a reflection, theoretically, of you as the parent based on who your children have become. Maybe there shouldn't be, but I think a lot of times, a parent is sort of a, like, if your kids are doing something, like, kids are crying on the plane, you'll see parents feeling this shame as if, like, if I were better at this, my children would not be reacting to their ears popping and would instead just be staring into space and, like… I don't know, doing their homework. And so I'm wondering, as a writer, how do you deal with that feeling? If you write a book and you love your book, but everyone hates it or they see something in it that you didn't, and then they want to reflect back on you as a writer, that seems like that would have that same feeling of shame as, like, I thought I did this, and I see it this way, but no one else sees it the way I do.
[Howard] Don't say kill your darlings. Don't say kill your darlings. Don't say kill your darlings.
[Laughter]
[Dan] I need some time to think about an answer for the question.
[DongWon] Well, the thing that strikes me, both in sort of this as a topic, and specifically what Erin was saying is that in a lot of ways, from the outside, again, so much of parenting is about knowing when to give up control. Right?
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] Because when they are an infant and a toddler and a thousand percent dependent on you for every single thing in their life, you have total control over that. That child. In many ways. Right? You can't control them necessarily when they're going to sleep or whatever it is, and that's the thing you're trying to figure out. But, once they grow, as they become teenagers, as they become adults, as your book is published and put in the world, you no longer have that control. Right? And your relationship to what that book is needs to change. Right? At some point, it's not your book anymore, it's the reader's book. Right? They're the ones with the relationship to it, their reading and their interpretation of it become… Not necessarily more important than yours, but it is different from yours in a way that you don't get to touch. Right? How they feel about it is something… It's really hard, I see authors struggle with this. When authors get in trouble online, it is often because they are trying to control reader response to the book in a way that is not only unwise, it is impossible to do. Right? And so, I think, I could see this parallel… I mean, in terms of, like, oh, you're now a full-grown person with your own ideas, your own emotions, your own thoughts about how the world works. I may disagree with them, but also, I kind of got to let you do your thing now.
[Dan] Well, what I have found with… I've got six kids, three of whom have moved out. Aged up, been adults. And kind of the year when they are 18 years old, in every case, they have ceased to be my beloved child, and they have now become an adult houseguest that I can't kick out.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] This does sound like my novel.
[Laughter]
[Dan] And there is that transitional period where… And it was very, very difficult the first time, and slightly easier the second and much easier the third, where I have noticed that and had to come to terms with what you were just saying. I cannot control you. I should not control you. The whole point of making you in the first place was to let you go off and do greater things than I have done.
 
[Mary Robinette] When the book leaves the house, it has its own relationships with the reader. And that's… This is a thing that I do think that a lot of us forget. Like, when we were talking about the metaphor for puppetry, I talk about the fact that I think about the reader as a collaborator. In this is very much the same thing. It's like the reader… The reader is not a coparent, they didn't help you raise the book. But they are relating to the adult book that you sent out into the world. I…
[Dan] Glad he's not going to buy a motorcycle.
[Mary Robinette] Right, right.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] Um… Children as metaphors for books for me is very different from raising children as a metaphor for writing. Because with both raising children and writing, I feel like the very best course material available is just go get started. Good luck. People will yell at you as you go and tell you you're doing it wrong or you're doing it right, or this is how I do it. Because the process of raising children is… Evolves so dramatically, not just as the children age but as the parent matures and finds strategies that work for them with their set of resources and their set of cultural contexts. And… I mean, yeah, there's the… With the first child, if the binky falls on the floor, you throw it in the boiling water and break out a fresh binky, and with the fourth child, if the binky bounces off the dog dish, you wipe it on your jeans, stick it back in the baby, and then consider taking the dog to the vet.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] But it's…
[Mary Robinette] Again, this sounds like my novel.
[Laughter]
[Howard] But it's this evolution…
[DongWon] That immune system is so much stronger than [garbled]
[Howard] It's this evolution of process…
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Howard] And I love that… Here we are with Writing Excuses, trying to fill a void for people in the learning to write aspect of the process, by telling about the learning to parent aspect of the process, and we are not going to help you much.
[DongWon] Well, and the reality is, in both these cases, there's only so much prep we can do.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] There's only so much education and learning that's going to help you. I mean I… In both cases, I think it's good to do some. Right? It's good to do your research, it's good to know what you're getting into, but also, it's going to be different. Every book is different, every child is different, every parent is different. Everyone's life looks different. And so, what your process is going to be is something that you will uncover by doing it. And that is (A) terrifying, but also (B) that openness to finding out what it is as you do it can be really beautiful.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And that is exactly where people get into trouble with both children and books is when they think this is the way it has to be and this rigidity. It doesn't work, because of that evolution.
[DongWon] Wait. Is Doctor Spock Save the Cat?
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I think that's exactly what we've just said.
[Dan] I…
[Mary Robinette] Save the Vulcan? Is that…
[Laughter]
[Howard] Writing Excuses, what to expect when you're expecting.
[Dan] Save Picard. The… I feel like I understood my own writing process a little better when I started GMing role-playing games a lot more. This… Which is a very similar process, I think, to raising children, because you… We have so many layered metaphors and mixed metaphors in this episode. It's amazing. When you are the GM of a campaign, you have in mind a story that you want to tell, whether you bought the book or you've come up with it yourself. But if you go through and just tell that story straight the way it is in your head, you're missing the entire point of role-playing, which is collaborative storytelling. You need to leave room for the players to be the heroes of that story and you are facilitating the story, rather than directing it, rather than kind of mandating it.
[DongWon] I think… Again, chasing this too many metaphors thing… For me, the greatest skill any GM or any player at a tabletop game can have is listening. Right? I think what distinguishes a truly great player from everyone else is their ability to listen to what other people are saying and respond to it. And in all of my experiences with kids, and I love hanging out with kids because they're just fascinating, because they're all just trying to figure out how the world works with their entire brain every second of every day. Because they don't understand yet. Right? And so whenever I've encountered a kid, and I just generally listen to what they're telling me and I responded as if they are having a conversation with anybody I would have in the world, with the full respect and attention I would give another adult, they love that. Right? And they respond so well. I think that's really true of the writing process, too. Right? As you come into your book, and really listening to what the story you've told is and what elements you've put there. You have all the control, you have all the techniques, you have all the tools that we've talked about for all these seasons of the show. But, at the same time, as you're crafting it, I do think that sometimes you need to step back and look at it with fresh eyes and really try to listen to what the story is and what your characters are doing and all of that.
 
[Mary Robinette] There's this thing that we say in the animal button community, which actually comes out of working with nonverbal children. Which is, presume competence.
[DongWon] Yes.
[Mary Robinette] And I think that this is a thing that would actually help a lot of writers, that when you're looking at the manuscript, and, like, this manuscript isn't working, I'm a failure as a writer, I'm a failure as a storyteller, this story is a failure. That that's the wrong way to go. That if you presume competence, and you look at what things is this story doing intentionally and how can I support the things that it is doing intentionally, that that's the way you support a child, that's the way you can support your own narrative process. Like, there's stuff that you do well, this stuff a child does well. You don't think that a child is a failure because they don't know how to cut with scissors yet. You look at, you've made good color choices, let me teach you how to work with scissors. And you can level them up slowly. And I think you can do that with a manuscript too, that you presume competence, you presume the idea that I had was good, the idea that I want this story to be, these things that the story is doing well, let me focus on those things, let me help that story level up to what it can be.
[Erin] I also think you can presume past competence. This is also like forgive your past self. So one thing that… I don't have any kids, but people who I know who are parents will talk about is, like, the frustration of, like, figuring out something like late… You're like, oh, no, if I had known this when my first kid was doing this, that I figured out on my third kid, I would have done it differently. But you know what? I was the person I was then. And I remember talking to… I can't remember who, but a writer who was, like, a prolific writer who was like, I hate some of my early short stories. But I don't ever pull them out of circulation because they reflect the writer I was at the time.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[DongWon] Yeah.
[Erin] And I want to honor who that writer was, and presume that they were as competent as they could be with what they had. Just because you have more tools now doesn't mean that your old self was bad or wrong, just that you were different.
[DongWon] Yeah.
 
[Howard] The three words that I lean into in those circumstances are grieve, then forgive. I am allowed to grieve having made the mistakes. But now that I've done that, I have to forgive myself and move on. I do want…
[Dan] Yeah. This is why my early manuscripts all have deep-seated trauma from being poorly raised.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] I want to… I actually want to talk about grieving and writing and… Which is, I think that this is one of the reasons that rejection hits so hard, especially when you're early in your career, because you do think of it as this story has died. And I don't think that that's… This is one of the places that it is not the same. We have invested ourselves in the story, we have this grief for the potential of the story. But the story always retains that potential, the work you've put into it always retains that potential. And when a child makes a mistake, when they mess up, when they are disappointed because they… Like, they don't get into the University they wanted, where they turn out to not be capable of the thing that you thought that they would be capable of, you grieve the loss of that potential, but the love is still there. The child is still there, the worth is still there. And so I think for writers when you think about a story that's been rejected, you can still… Like, that value is still there, that worth is still there.
[DongWon] I also want to flag one thing which is… And maybe this is slicing something too thin, but I think there's a space between forgiveness and acceptance. Right? And so when you look back at your juvenilia and you can see the errors that you made there or the things that you wish you had done differently, you don't necessarily need to exactly forgive your past self, but you need to accept that you were the person who made those choices and who wrote that thing, and that's not going to change at this point. And that's okay. Right? And I think there is an important distinction there.
[Mary Robinette] Like, for instance, if you go back into the archives of Writing Excuses, you're going to hear me talking about a manu… A middle grade manuscript that I was trying to work out. And we talk about it on the podcast. But the thing we don't talk about, because I had not yet learned this thing, was that that manuscript was white Savior complex and cultural appropriation all the way down, baked in, there was no fixing it. And I am… Like, I forgive myself for having made that mistake. Should I have known better? Probably, but based on the way I was raised in the time I was raised in, I didn't. But I don't continue making the mistake just because I made it in the past.
[Howard] But it's important to recognize, and this is why I lead with grieve. It is important to recognize that sometimes when you're looking at something that you just… You're filled with regret, you're filled with longing, you're filled with remorse, and you have to recognize, oh, wait, I'm grieving the lost time, the lost effort, the lost whatever. Oh, this is grief. I just need to treat this like grief so that I can grieve and then move on.
[DongWon] And get to that place of acceptance, that clarity of seeing the critique of what went wrong and still be able to deal with it.
[Dan] So I'm going to make a final point, and this is going to lead us into our homework. There comes a point in writing, as in raising children, where the thing you are working on does something that you don't like. Whether that is something you've put in intentionally, something you've done accidentally, a character with a mind of its own, or a scene that just doesn't work or whatever it is. And we talked about this in the past where that is an opportunity not for you to immediately, and say, well, this isn't in my outline, and so therefore it is bad, but to take stock of it and say, is this something that I need to change so that it matches my plan, or is this new thing it's doing better, and I need to change my plan? And that is, I think, is true with children as it is with writing.
 
[Dan] And so for homework, what I'm going to say is do that in reverse. Whether you have a child of your own, a child you interact with, or just a person in your life that you are mentoring or that you are friends with. If they are doing something you don't like, take that moment to consider, is this actually better than what I had planned or assumed, and kind of give that moment of grace to them. And sometimes, yes. You need to step in and correct. Other times, you need to realize that they are their own person, and what they are doing is right for them. So look for those moments in your life, as well as in your writing.
 
[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 20.32: Revision and Character Consciousness Tea Obreht 
 
 
Key points:  Think of your characters in layers. Start with one thing at a time. That's my secret, I'm always panicked. Give yourself the freedom to say this is just an exercise. Give your character a discomfort. HALT - hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. Character consciousness, the gestalt of what you know about your characters. Generative phase, stumble around in the dark in this abandoned house, then in revision, curate that experience for the reader. What is your character's level of self-questioning? Trauma points, safety, connection, and empowerment. Never tell an editor oh, I'll just have to add a line or two, or three words. 
 
[Season 20, Episode 32]
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 32]
 
[Howard] This is Writing Excuses.
[Mary Robinette] Revision and Character Consciousness with Tea Obreht. 
[Howard] I'm Howard.
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[Erin] I'm Erin.
 
[Mary Robinette] And we are joined today by our special guest, Tea Obreht. Tea and I have the same agent, and Steph said, "Hey, you should have her on, because she's super smart." And it turns out when you do even a tiny bit of digging, she is incr… In fact, very smart. So… And also, a damn good writer. Tea, would you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
[Tea] Thank you so much for that, Mary Robinette. I'm going to mortify myself now, as a result of this high praise. I'm Tea Obreht. I am a short story writer and novelist. I have three books out, The Tiger's Wife, Inland, and, this year, The Morningside. They touch on Balkan diaspora and myth and folklore, in different applications throughout history and time.
[Mary Robinette] That's… Like, they are so… I don't… Fun is the wrong word. But they… I love the way that you play with genre in them. Specifically, the way you… You're [garbled] a lot of the things about character and expectations. Through the whole thing. So, we're going to be talking, as much as I want to spend a lot of time actually talking about the books, we're going to be talking specifically about revision and character consciousness. This is something that you had pitched, and I was excited about it because I feel like a lot of people think that you have to get all of the beats about a character right immediately the first time around. And it is actually something that you can address in revision. When you are thinking about it, what are some of the things that you're thinking about, like, when you're saying revision and character consciousness?
[Tea] Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, I think of my characters in layers, essentially. I suffer in regenerative ways horribly. I find the first draft of any project, especially when I'm entering it with a character I don't know very well, I find it to be a harrowing slog. It feels unstable, it feel shaky, it feels unreliable. And I think some people really love the adventure of that. They love to explore the unknown and see what will come out. But, for me, writing is really about getting down to the knowns, and being able to shape them kind of as efficiently as possible. Which is why character exploration becomes such a frustrating enterprise. And I've learned now to sort of take the basic elements of somebody's life, and try to start with one thing at a time. So, what is their emotional condition entering the stakes of the plot? What is their job? Do they have… What's the relationship with their mother? That's a really fun one for me, always. And to sort of work outward from that one kernel. Especially if I can't see the totality of somebody right away. I mean, I think sometimes characters kind of walk in and they're fully formed. I've had that miraculous experience. It's just the most wonderful thing when it happens. But, for me, for the most part, it's trying to circle around and around and around in, like, a widening gyre around this character.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Do you know…
[Erin] I'm curious…
[Mary Robinette] Oh, go ahead…
 
[Erin] No, I'm curious, like, as you're doing this, is this something you're doing just as you're writing or is this sort of before you start that first draft? Like, are you knowing the relationship of the mother before page 1, or are you on, like, page 100 and you're, like, actually, now that I think about it, how does she feel about her mother? Like, when does that process take place?
[Tea] It usually takes place, like, in the meat of the work. So, I write towards event first, and then the characters sort of come creeping out as themselves. But, yeah, for me, it's usually I get to page about 100 and then I'm like… And then an interaction happens. Right? With another character. That forces a reckoning about the relationship with the mother, or the fact that they secretly… That they secretly ran over a best friend's cat last week, and actually this is the thing they're hiding. And then it becomes… Then the revision kicks in almost immediately, because the reverse engineering of that fact into every element of this person's interactions has to happen sooner rather than later, so that it can set the tone for the rest of what's coming. So that's how I work, in a big, disorganized mess.
[Howard] In one of the episodes we've… I don't know if it's going to air before or after this one, because time is weird that way. But there's this famous saying that all acting is reacting. And sometimes you don't know what a character is until you see how they react to something. You can have them be proactive and just do stuff, but when you see their response to someone else getting angry or someone else being sad or someone else messing up their order at the drive through, or whatever, that's when, for me, the characters really start to come to life, and I recognize… And sometimes I have to be careful. Wait! Is that character reacting the way I would? Are they reacting the way they would? And so I have to dive back in on that filter.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Tea] Yeah. Absolutely.
[Mary Robinette] I often will do some of this work before I start writing, when I'm working a novel. In short fiction, I'm just like, let's see who they are. And then in novel, even though I've done some pre-work, I will always have that moment of discovery. Where there is a piece of information that I didn't have about them that comes out, as you say, because of that interaction, because of the way they're moving through the world. I will… For listeners who have read The Relentless Moon, I will say that there is a compelling character trait that I did not know until that scene happened. And you will know what I'm talking about, if you've read the book.
[Erin] I love a real world example.
[Chuckles]
[Erin] I find that, like, I personally fall a little bit in the middle, like I often know the what but not the why, if that makes any sense. So, because I tend to be very voice full, just in my work, I'll take a long time to hone in on the character's voice, but I don't necessarily know why that voice works for me. Like, it's like there's some subconscious character work going on that I don't understand. And then sometimes, in the middle of writing, I'll be like, oh, that's why that character speaks in this particular tone. That's why they use this level of language. It's because… It sounded right to me that they always used 10 dollar words where a five cent word would do. And later, I figured out it's because they feel embarrassed about their level of formal education, and this is their way of making up for it. But at the time, it just kind of felt right. So I feel like, sometimes, I'm like deep diving on my own consciousness, getting back to the phrase, of the character, because I'm doing things subconsciously that I have to surface consciously so I can really work on them, and, like, make them a real thing.
 
[Tea] Totally. Can I ask you, if you don't mind, do you find that when you're trying to zero in on that thing, you feel a sense of panic about it, like, when you don't know it yet, and is there sort of a time limit by which you hope to have the answer, beyond which you don't want to progress with your work until you have it?
[Howard] You know the scene in Avengers where Banner says, "That's my secret, Captain. I'm always angry." That's my secret, I'm always panicked.
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Tea] I feel it's true.
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[Erin] Yeah. Sometimes I fret about it. But it… A lot of times, it is that the fretting happens because I need the character to do a thing for plot purposes, and do not feel like I have laid the groundwork to have them make that a realistic compelling choice.
[Tea] Absolutely. And then it feels… Then the work itself feels wasted. Right? You've arrived at this point, or suddenly it feels this way for me. Like, you've arrived at this point, hoping that you will know who this person is, inside and out, and there was supposed to be maybe three layers that were revealed to you by the time you got to this interaction or this choice they have to make or this event that's going to impact them irreversibly. Right? And instead [garbled go little bare?] and now you are forced to write this kind of important scene without all the correct knowledge. And I find that the only way to relax myself entering into that is to say this is not… This scene is going right in the trash. Like, I'm going to find something in here that is going to reveal that extra layer to me. There's a lot of work left to do, not just in the scene that's coming, but everything that precedes it. But I have to do this with the bare stick that I have. I had hoped to arrive here with a better arsenal, but here we are, I've got a twig I tore off a tree. And now…
[Chuckles]
[Tea] That's what we're doing.
[Mary Robinette] Yes. So, when we come back from our break, we're going to talk about what I like to call how to fix it in post.
 
[Tea] All right. I have a recommendation for you. The husband and I are re-watching Deadwood. Start to finish. I saw it in the early oughts, and then I made him watch it, kind of as a compatibility test when we were first dating. He passed. We've been married now for almost 11 years. Deadwood is so sordid, and it's still tough going, and there are scenes of such brutality, but it's such an incredible study of character and such a profound reminder that you can do anything if you find the right voice for it. You can create a whole setting, a whole mood out of language alone. And I really think that show would work just as well if the actors were wearing track suits and walking around an empty stage.
 
[Mary Robinette] So. We've been talking about that moment of arriving and realizing, oh, I don't actually know as much about this character as I thought I did. I sometimes call this internal motivation, character consciousness, there's a bunch of different terms we can talk about, like the character's interior life and when you're like, oh, hello! Aaaa... So I have a couple of tools that I use to audition characters, to try to draw this stuff out. When you find yourself in that phase, you've already talked about one tool which you use, which is that you give yourself freedom to say this is fine. This is just an exercise. Are there other tools that you have found useful for kind of drawing that character consciousness out?
[Tea] Yes. I love to give them a discomfort. I think we have a real impulse, and a very understandable impulse, particularly in the early phase of something, to protect our characters to some extent. To protect them, maybe physically from the world, to protect them from their own bad decisions, and maybe to protect them from the worst aspects of their own character. And it's really that… Or their own personality. And it's that worst aspect of this person's or that individual's personality that I'm looking for, that I often feel unlocks the character for me. So I like to give them an injury or… I like to give them an injury, or just like really… Or…
[Howard] Important thing is we like to protect our characters from us.
[Tea] From ourselves.
[Howard] Because we are their worst enemies. Really.
[Tea] Exactly. They don't stand a chance. Yeah, I like the idea of… I'm always very curious about how people react to things when they're in pain. Right? Or when they're hungry or when they're thirsty or when they're tired. I think it reveals so much. It reveals a lot about me, you know. I wouldn't want anyone to meet me in any of those states for the first time. And, yeah, I think discomfort is a very good way to kind of force the character into a corner and have them react as poorly as possible.
[Erin] You're reminding me of that acronym HALT. They say that if you are, like, grumpy, that you should halt and see if you are hungry, angry, lonely, or tired.
[Chuckles]
[Erin] And that those, specifically, because no one works well under those conditions. And so I love the idea that you should not halt and give all of them… Not, maybe, I should say one…
[Chuckles]
[Erin] To your characters and then…
[Howard] No, it is Howard, asshole, leave the room.
[Laughter]
[I'd like to stay in the room]
[Mary Robinette] Stay in the room and expose your pain for the character.
[Howard] Oh, goodness. Tea, I love the term character consciousness that you've kind of introduced us to. I've been mulling over it this whole time, the idea among psychologists, psychiatrists, students of neurology, what is consciousness? Well, it's kind of this blurry, foggy Gestalt of everything we experience and everything we are thinking and moving… And if you take everything that you know about your characters on the page, how they feel about mom, what is giving them pain, what are their motivations, and start to roll that into this Gestalt, this consciousness, they start to become people. In your head. And I didn't realize it for years. I had it super easy, because with Schlock Mercenary, there were a dozen different characters that I knew well enough that I could just as I laid down in bed for the night, I could just say all right, you to, talk about something. I'll check in on you in the morning. And it practically… Once you have that consciousness, it almost writes itself. You just put them in front of things and cool things happen.
[Tea] Totally. And I think part of that, too, is, like, the longevity. Right? Of that notion, this idea of, like, getting this steeped in the… Well, getting these characters to steepen themselves, and then getting to steep yourself in them until you're sort of almost inextricable from each other, and, like, maybe their reactions are not the reactions that you would have in real life. But it is so clear who they are. Right? And I think that's why we spend so long on this idea of, like, character development, what makes up the personality of someone that we're crafting on the page. And then the consciousness part I think has to be rounded out by this idea of, like, how does this personality react to the stimuli around it. Given all the factors that it's been filled with. Yeah.
 
[Howard] So we're fixing it in post. Mary Robinette, we're fixing it in post.
[Mary Robinette] Yep.
[Howard] What... Tea, what are your steps for this? You're going back through a manuscript, you're revising and you either have a clear picture of character consciousness or you don't. But you're making your way. How do you… Tell us how it works.
[Chuckles]
[Tea] Does it work? I… So… I think of the generative phase as, like, my first time in an abandoned house. Right? Like, I've gotten in somehow, and I'm finding my way around, and there's no electricity and there's no heat and there's no power, and I'm stumbling around in the darkness by the aid of, like, a penlight. I can't see very far ahead. I'm like tripping over furniture. There's no logic to the layout. And then my job, in the next phase, in the revision phase, is to curate this experience. Having had an emotional and psychological experience within this house, my job is to curate this experience for the reader. Right? And their way into this character might not be through the same way that I stumbled into the house. Maybe they're falling in through a window, whereas I found the downstairs door. And my aim is to get them to have as close as possible… To get them to a point where they're, if not mirroring, at least echoing my own sentiments about the character. And, I think that, for me, starts with truth. Like, is this reaction true to this person? Or is it, as you were saying earlier, true to me, or is it what I would like them to do? And are they aware of how messed up they are? Like, what is their level of self questioning? I think that's an enormously important sort of part of the rubric for me where… To question whether a character has any feelings about being a good participant of this interaction, being a good citizen in this reaction, or whether they just want what they want? So what is the level of self-doubt is, like, an early revision question that I often ask of my characters.
 
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. You're reminding me of a conversation that I had with my therapist in which she was telling me about trauma points, that there are these points that we anchor to. That something happened in our very, very early childhood. And it's around safety, connection, and empowerment. And the thing that I realized was that most of my characters have not done the therapy work that I have done. So I don't actually have to know actually what that event was. I just have to know what kinds of things trigger them. Like, I'm looking for those consistencies. So I also will find myself working in layers, if you… As you've described, and going back and saying, "How do I bring this out? How do I make it clear, this thing?" And I described to my… To Seth, to our agent, as, oh, yeah, I just have to go back and add a line here and add a line here, and add a line there. And I know what you mean. Which is that what I mean is that I need to think about are they having an emotional reaction at this moment? Are they feeling it physically in their body at this moment? And that often it's not revising an entire scene, it's just adding that layer in. And when I said that to him, he's like, never let an editor here you say it's only going to take a couple of lines. Because they will not understand all of the other work that goes into the decisions that allow you to do it with just a couple of lines.
[Tea] I've had that same conversation…
[Laughter]
[Tea] With…
[Laughter]
[garbled]
[Tea] Favorite aunts. No, but it's… That's uncanny. And I love that, too, because it… Yeah, it's sort of… It speaks to this idea of, like, I've understood that's what's missing here is the fact that in previous scenes of emotional reaction, that this character has, I've held the reader's hand and let them see it explicitly. And for whatever reason, in this scene, in this particular moment of the book, I've let go of their hand and I'm allowing them to make an inference about it, when, in fact, to make the book consistent, I need to be right there with them. And I know all those things, but the editor doesn't, so it is one line or two lines…
[Howard] Yeah. This is something that, as a cartoonist, you keep saying line, and there are so many illustrations that I have fixed by adding literally one-stroke with the pencil, with the pen. Three little lines in one corner of an object can create the illusion of shadow. And now, suddenly, the object has volume. And so… I mean, I love the fact that this holds true in writing as well. Sometimes I only needed to add three words to a character's sentence in order for it to now have all the emotional import that it needed to have. They said the same things, but it meant ever so much more, with the addition of just three words. And, yeah, never tell anybody that, oh, all I need to do is add three words, but it's going to take me 12 hours of reviewing the manuscript in order to figure out where those three words go. And what they are.
[Mary Robinette] Yes. I am in the process of doing that with a manuscript right now, and I'm like, I know that it is one sentence and I just have to figure out where it goes. And then you have to adjust everything around the sentence to make it fit, also, is the other thing that is always, always fun. Well, you have actually already given me some homework because tomorrow I am teaching a class at the Surrey International Writers Conference on auditioning the character, and, like, I am inserting the hungry, angry, alone, lonely, tired stuff in there, into that class. But since we are talking about homework, I think you have some homework for our listeners?
 
[Tea] I certainly do. Okay. So the assignment this week, the homework this week, is to write an opening paragraph. Not too long, maybe 3 to 6 lines. It can be something new that you write as a result of this assignment, or an already existing opener that you've been working on, being a little dismissive of, not sure. Not going to micromanage the content, but due to the nature of the exercise, let's say it should be a paragraph that introduces a few new pieces of information. Or a few key pieces of information. Maybe a character, maybe a conflict, maybe a desire, a lack thereof, perhaps a problem, event… You're all listening to this podcast, so you know the drill. I'd like you to consider the information that's contained in your paragraph. And then rewrite the whole thing two more times. Ultimately conveying the same information, but in three different ways. How you do this is completely up to you. Maybe in a different voice, maybe from a different perspective, maybe using only dialogue, framing it as a text exchange between two people. As you write the different versions, you have to remember that it's about the information. It has to be the same, version to version. And then consider, at the end of the exercise, the priorities of each different mode, how it's changing the way the information is relayed and whether that then changes the information itself, and whether it changes the reader's feelings about it or your own?
[Mary Robinette] That's great homework, and I'm looking forward to doing it myself.
 
[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses, now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 20.31: Framing the Lens 
 
 
Key points: Frame? How do you choose what's in your story and what's not? How do you select your focus? MICE Quotient. These are the questions I'm asking, and these are the answers I'm giving my readers. Set the frame in the beginning, a promise to tell you about this thing. What does the reader need to know? You may be writing your way into the story, and adjust the frame later. Think about how your readers will connect the dots. Verisimilitude... Captivate your reader, and keep them in frame as long as possible.
 
[Season 20, Episode 31]
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 31]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[Erin] Framing the Lens.
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[Erin] I'm Erin.
[Dan] And I'm Dan.
 
[Erin] And... Wow! We are almost to the end of our entire lens lineup. We have gone through many, many lenses. And before we get into this one, I just want to make sure that you're aware that in two weeks, we are starting our deep dive into All the Words in the Sky. So if you haven't read it, this is a great time to get in there and read it, because we will be dropping so many spoilers and we want you to have a chance to experience the book before we get into it. But first, we're going to talk about frame. And the reason that this one I thought would be a great one to kind of go last, is we've talked a lot... A little... A lot about what happens when you're using whatever lens you 're using. But not how you choose what the lens is actually focused on. How do you choose what's in your story and what's not? All the decisions that we've been talking about sort of presume that you already know what you're focused on. But how do you make that choice? And how does it inform all of the other choices that we've been making?
[Mary Robinette] I think that that's actually one of the hardest things, especially for a new writer, is deciding what to leave out... The... You've got a story in your head, but there's so much detail and you can't capture it all. It's not possible, and it's almost like not pleasant to read. So I wind up using a couple of different tools for my frame. One of which, will surprise no one, is the M.I.C.E. Quotient. Beause that gives me a way to articulate for myself these are the questions that I'm asking. Here are the conflicts that arise because of those questions, and here are the... Here's the answer that I'm giving the reader. Like, are they going to be able to get out of the place? Oh, no, more rocks fall. Ah, yay, they get out.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] That's a milieu story. And so, I then know that if part of the thing that I really want to talk about is did you know that the lichen that are growing in this cave are.. It's like, I wonder why they glow? Let me tell you about the glowing... It's like the glowing does not matter to them getting out of the cave and surviving the rocks falling. It's not actually important, even though I'm really interested in it. It allows me to say, no, I can set that aside. I don't have to explore that.
[Dan] Yeah. Whereas, if it were an idea story that is specifically about the glowing lichen or whatever is causing the glowing lichen, you could tell the same thing with the same characters and the same setting, but in a way that focuses more on the lichen and the escape from the caves is less of a story element.
[Erin] It's funny. I, I think, go a lot more by gut on this. And it's a lot of, like, how we tell stories. I think a lot about, like, if you were to sit around a campfire and tell a story, and this is also why I like short stories, because it's hard telling a novel around a campfire. It's a good way to lose friends, because…
[Chuckles]
[Erin] Actually, the fire goes out and they're really cold and hungry. But, like, when you tell… When people sit down, like, oh, my gosh, I gotta tell you about the time, like, I set my teacher on fire. Don't do this at home. Actually…
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] Do you want to pick a different example?
[Erin] Yeah. Okay. As a teacher, I have failed myself. Let me tell you about the time I went into this cave with glowing lichen, and did not set my teacher on fire. Then, that is, like, you sort of… You set the frame at the beginning, and I think a lot of this makes me think about when you start a story, in some ways, you are saying, whether explicitly or implicitly, you're making a promise. You're saying I'm going to tell you about this thing. I'm going to tell you about the time I got trapped in the land of the lichen caves and had barely got out by the skin of my teeth. Or, I'm going to tell you about the time I figured out why lichen are glowing in this cave and used it to save the world. Same place, like you were saying, same characters, but you set the frame in the beginning. And so I think remembering that when I'm going… When I'm tempted to go off on a side note is too much like when someone's telling you a story and they're like, and that reminds me of my coworker… But you know what, actually, no, we were talking about the caves… Is to remind myself what is the promise that I made? What's the frame that I set when I started? And then let me continue going. And if it starts to feel like that is a stricture, like, I'm like so mad because every two seconds, I want to go off on this side story, then maybe I've set my frame incorrectly, and I need to rewind, reset, and tell the story I want to tell.
[Dan] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. It's… I think of it… As you were talking, I was thinking another way to talk about it is what does the reader need to know? This is a thing that I think about all the time. What does the reader need to know to continue the story? And if you think about it as navigation, like, what does the reader need to know to navigate the story? If you have ever ask someone who learn to navigate before the Internet, you will get things like, okay, so you have to go down the street. Now, there used to be a school bus parked on the corner. The school bus… Do you remember Johnny? Johnny used to drive that school bus.
[Dan] This is how I give people directions…
[Laughter]
[Dan] And I feel a little called out.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Well, again, you learned to navigate before there were paper maps… Before… Before there were paper maps…
[Dan] Before there were paper maps?
[Laughter]
[Dan] Navigating purely by the stars…
[Erin] You look great, I have to say.
[Dan] Thank you.
[Laughter]
[Erin] [garbled] when you said that thing about navigation, I was reminded that I'm like… This is unrelated to our topic. But there are two types of people in the world, people who navigate, like, by memory, by this thing, and people who do compass, like. There are people who will be like go three blocks, turn Northeast by Northwest. Then go six blocks in an easterly westerly direction. And, like, that's how they go. Versus, like, actually using things that kind of are more about, like, who lived there and what did things. And it makes me think that, like, frame is partly about what's in the story, but also in how your setting up the telling of the story. Like, directions given by a person who talks about Johnny in the bus is very different than directions by the person who has a much more compass-oriented way. And I think they work, as long as you don't switch from one to the other mid story and confuse the reader, because you've gone from a frame of one to a frame of the other without signaling that you're making that change.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And different readers need different things to navigate through a story. Like, if someone who is familiar with faster than light travel with science fiction stories, one of the things that they do not need you to do is to define FTL, faster than light travel, they've got it. But if you try to have that story go mainstream, you do have to define it because they have no idea what FTL is. If you're… So a lot of times, the frame is not just what is… What promises you're making about the kind of story you're telling, but also the conversation that you're having with the reader.
[Dan] Yeah. And I love thinking about this idea of what you include and what do you not include. Because it really does change the entire tone of the story. One of the things that I chose with the I Am Not a Serial Killer books is to include John's family. They are thrillers, they are about investigations to try to find monsters that are killing people. But we see his family constantly. The first book is basically a string of holidays, and we get to see how he and his mom celebrate them. And does his sister come to this one or not? And is his aunt there? And what do they talk about and what do they do, and how does it matter to them? And the reason that I did that is because I very much wanted the story to be about how John is and isn't a person. How he fits into the world and how he doesn't fit into the world. And using these really common resonant things like Halloween parties and Christmas vacations helps that come forward, because that's something most of us have experienced. And if that were not in there, you wouldn't get that same view of who he is.
[Mary Robinette] I made similar holiday decisions for somewhat different reasons, but also overlapping ones, when I was working on Martian Contingency, because I wanted to talk about what does it mean to create a culture. Like, when you're going someplace, what do you take from home that is part of making you who you are? Part of making you people from Earth, but now you are also Martians, and so there are new holidays and new ways of marking time and new blending. And so for me, if I didn't include the holidays, the parties, the giftgiving, the conversations about the time, it would have just been, oh, things have gone wrong in space. Oh no!
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] Which was… Which is fun, and like… It's really fun to torture people by dropping rocks on them and stuff like that. But it is… It's a mono dimensional thing. And so, thinking about the frame, thinking about what I want to include, I want to include more than one kind of thing inside that frame. I don't want to include, like, just holidays. Like a story that's just holidays, that's fine. That's also fine. But holidays, rocks fall… Those things are more interesting than a frame with a single object in it.
[Erin] I love that. And I am… We are going to give you, I should say, a brief holiday from us, and then we will return on the other side of this break.
 
[Erin] So, to pick up on something from before the break, I am really curious about sort of how do you decide what… If you're like, I want to include a holiday or I want to include the sense of being a person, how do you know when you're getting off track, like, when you're expanding your frame too far and when what you're doing is actually supporting the story that you're trying to tell?
[Mary Robinette] I think, for me, it's going back to an earlier lens that we used, which is thinking about the why. And that's the… Why do I… Am I telling this story? What are the questions that I'm exploring? And within the frame, when I'm thinking about what goes in it, I'm thinking about the why, but the why has then allowed me to set up, again, the tools that I particularly use, which is the MICE Quotient. So if the conflict, if the problem that is directly in front of the character, is not something that is related to the questions that I have already raised, then it's opening up a new tangent. That's when… It's like, oh. Oh, I'm going to need a bigger lens to fit everything in, a bigger frame to fit everything in. Or things are going to get really cramped and confusing, because it'll be so piled on top of each other that you can't actually tell what's important anymore.
[Dan] Yeah. In the first draft of I Am Not a Serial Killer, there was a whole chapter about civil disobedience in some social studies class, and that became a way for John Cleaver, the main character, to decide to take matters into his own hands and start fighting these monsters himself. And it was… First of all, I realized that very few people in my writing group understood what civil disobedience was, which was complicated… Anyway. But there was also the issue that it just felt wrong. It was a story where it became very didactic. It became the author saying, "Look. This is what's going to happen next." And it was getting far away from that thing I was trying to show about does he fit into the world or not? And so even though it was this chunk slice of life that was able to show some of his classmates and how he was different from them, but it was the wrong thing. It was… It didn't feel organic to the story. Which is what I eventually… What eventually made me decide to cut it out.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Most of the cut scenes that I have from short stories or novels are things like that. Things that… If they don't… It's not necessarily that they're didactic, but they… They're taking the story in a direction that is not the direction that I'm interested in going. Again, I can… I will often use MICE Quotient as a diagnostic tool. But it can also… Sometimes it's not that, it's… It's like, yeah, MICE Quotient wise, this fits in, but the tone of the thing is wrong. Like, I'm trying to show people, in Martian Contingency in particular, what happens if you make a kinder choice. And this scene is a character being actively and deliberately cruel to someone. And sometimes it is because it is something that I have seen in media, and I've accidentally regurgitated it without interrogating my own text, my own intentions, without looking through my own lens.
 
[Erin] It's funny, what you're both describing makes me think of something that I think a lot… I do all the time, and I think a lot of people do, which is, sometimes you're not actually finding the frame of the story, you're just writing yourself into… You're writing your way into the story. It's why… There's that old trope of, like, don't ever start a story with the character waking up. You can start a story with a character waking up.
[Mary Robinette] Absolutely. Yeah.
[Erin] Go for it. But sometimes you're doing it because you know that later in the day, the character needs to do X, and you're still trying to feel your way through the story. So you start with, like, something that feels like a very obvious beginning. It is like… Opening your eyes is a very obvious frame to any day. Like, once you're awake, the day has begun. And so you start, and you write your way end, and so you're finding… You're choosing a broader frame than you actually need because you're kind of doing all the fluff in order to, like, get yourself in the mood and rev yourself up. And I would say, on that note, if you… You're working on a story, you're at the beginning, you're like, I don't know if this is the correct frame. Sometimes you can't know until you get to the end. It's like if you take a panoramic shot, you may not know where to crop it until you look at the whole picture and go, this is where the interesting thing is happening. This is where the action is. And so it's okay to, like, come in and figure out the frame after you've written more and sort of excise the parts that turned out to actually be kind of you figuring out where to go, and what's important.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Sometimes I find that I will start earlier because the story isn't in focus yet, much the same way that when I get up in the morning, as someone who is quite nearsighted, the world is not in focus…
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] Until I put on my literal lenses.
[Erin] 100 percent.
[Laughter]
 
[Erin] Time has been shooting away through this episode. There is one thing that you mentioned earlier, Mary Robinette, that I want to circle back to. Which sounds so corporate, but I said it anyway. But you mentioned the idea that if you talk about FTL in a sci-fi story for a sci-fi audience, they understand it. But if you take it to a mainstream audience, they're like, FT what? And so I am wondering about frame not just as like the frame that you're putting on the story, but frame as a conversation between the story and the reader. And, like, how do you frame a story depending on who your audience is, what they might be bringing to the story, how you think that it might be received without getting paralyzed by the idea of, like… Or just getting stopped in your tracks, by the idea of what the reader might take from your story?
[Mary Robinette] So, we've talked about some of this, like, when we were talking about the idea of theme and meaning. But I, in particular, when I'm doing my historical fiction, there's language that has always been a slur, but is historically accurate for one character to call another. But it will hit completely differently for a modern reader than it would for someone back in the day. I was talking with someone, is one of the least charged versions that I can demonstrate this with… Talking with someone who said that you can turn any sentence into a sleazy pickup line by adding the word "ladies?" to the end of it. Can I change your microphone, ladies?
[Laughter]
[Erin] Exactly. I feel gross.
[Mary Robinette] But you can also do something with the word "see" which will turn anything into a gangster film. Can I change your microphone, see? It's like I don't know but you just threatened me. You want me to change your microphone, see!
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] And so there's stereotypes. There are all of these different pieces that we come equipped with when we are reading a story that change with generations, that change with culture. And so when I'm writing, especially historical or going secondary world, I have to think about how that is going to translate. If I have… Using a puppetry metaphor, I remember we were working on a show and I looked at my design and we realized that accidentally, because we had… It was a whole bunch of rats. I was… Pied Piper. And we realize that accidentally we had made all of the rats street rat colors. So they were all dark browns and dark grays and blacks. And it was like that was encoding something that is not the message that we want to be encoding. That is an accident that can be read very, very easily by an audience as, like, mapping it onto black and brown people in the real world. And that's not the intention. And so I… We went back and added in some, like, blonde rats, because do you know rats actually come in blonde? They're really pretty. Piebald rats, to go with the Pied Piper. So going through and breaking that up so we worked sending an accidental message. So when I'm evaluating something, when I'm writing my fiction, I look at what are the things that I'm accidentally encoding that are mapped on the real world regardless of if it's a secondary world fantasy or not.
[Erin] I've sort of two thoughts on this. One is a really tortured metaphor that I'm going to share anyway. Which is if you… People sometimes are in relationships that are [garbled] they're situation-ships, and I had a guy friend who had… Who had a young woman that he was in a situation-ship with…
[Chuckles]
[Erin] He started to make all these things that were like… I called it, like, couples bingo. And I was like if you do too many of these things, like now you're… Like, you can't like take her to Christmas, three weddings, and then, like, be like, why do you think we're dating? It's like, well, I mean, there are certain things that, like, if you hit enough boxes, if you hit enough like… It's like if you're drawing a connect the dots. If you connect enough dots, like, people can figure out what the picture is here. So don't get mad when she breaks up with you.
[Laughter]
[Erin] Because she realizes you're dating eight other people. Life lessons there. But the… Like, what I think about that is with stories as well, like, if you… Sometimes people will feel like I wasn't trying to map onto this real life thing, like, that was never my intention, and it can feel like, why do I have to change my story just because other people will read it that way? But, just like my friend's Christmas would have gone a lot better if he had been clearer or made different decisions early on, you don't want to end up having the entire story about your story be something completely different than your intention. You don't want to end up being defensive about your story or explaining what you really meant when you can make it clearer to the reader from the outset by not connecting as many of those dots or adding new dots to the picture or just doing things differently. And so, I know that sometimes it can feel like why should I have to change the story for the readers, or for the world, but the reality is that, like, the world is the world of people that will be buying, talking about, celebrating, marketing, and all of that stuff towards your work. And ultimately, if they don't feel comfortable doing that, the only person it really harms in the long run is you and your career because you are not able to escape the thing that you were not even trying to do in the first place, I think.
[Dan] Agreed.
[Erin] Thanks.
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. But it… It is absolutely true. And it's… This is a frame. The frame of the reader is one of the frames. The frame of the modern world is the frame through which your story is going to be perceived and enjoyed. When you're talking about, instead of the frame around the lens, when you're talking about the frame around a picture, the picture frame serves to give it context. And the modern world is part of the context that your readers will bring to a story. When you read… There's a reason, like, Huckleberry Finn has warnings on it now. It's still a fantastic story, there's still a lot of really great stuff in there, but there's pieces of it that do not read the same now as they did when Mark Twain wrote it, and then there are pieces that have always read that way, depending on who the reader is.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] So, like, again, using a less loaded example, Jane Austen use the word electricity in her novels. I 100 percent cannot. Because the frame of a modern reader is that electricity did not exist until they were children, and certainly not in Jane Austen's time. So if I write… Use it, in a story that is set in Jane Austen's time, it looks like an escape, it reads differently than it does when she was using it. Because our understanding of electricity has changed.
[Erin] Wow. Somehow, it's so funny, we've, like, come around to verisimilitude, my favorite ridiculously long word, for no reason, which is, like, the feeling of something feeling real. It's the old one people always talk about is the Tiffany problem, which is that Tiffany is a Middle Ages name, but it sounds like a Valley girl name. And so if you have, like, Sir Tiffany, people will not… Like, it will throw them out of the story. It will throw them out of the frame. Because they will automatically bring their modern frame to it, and they will no longer be able to focus on the picture you are trying to show them. Because they'll be thinking about everything else. What you want to do is captivate the reader and keep them in frame as long as possible. And with that, we have kept you in frame for a very long episode. And so I think this would be a great time to send us away to the homework.
 
[Erin] Which is, to get back to sort of our earlier thought about framing the lens, take a story that you're working on, and what I'd like you to do is think about what happens if you shift the frame just a little. The easiest way to do this is, is there a scene that you could take out that would, like, shift the way that the lens of the story sort of is focused? And what new scene would you add in in order to rebalance your story? Then go and write that scene. And have fun with it.
 
[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses, now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 20.30: Using Why To Shape Tone 
 
From https://writingexcuses.com/20-30-using-why-to-shape-tone
 
Key points: Tone? Emotional beats. The vibe. Contrasting tones. In space, something always goes wrong. Sentence level tone? Assonance, consonants, emphasis. Sentence length and word length. Punctuation. Imagery. Sensory details. Cherry red, lipstick red, or blood red?
 
[Season 20, Episode 30]
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 30]
 
[Howard] This is Writing Excuses.
[Mary Robinette] Using Why To Shape Tone.
[Howard] I'm Howard.
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[Dan] And I'm Dan.
 
[Mary Robinette] Today we're going to be talking about tone. Now, I know that we did a whole episode in Season 18 on tone and mood. We're coming back to tone, because I love talking about it.
[Yay!]
[Mary Robinette] Tone is one of those words that people use when talking about fiction in a lot of different ways. The tone of horror, or the tone of the scene. What we're going to do is we're going to break down what it means, how we use it, and how it can be a tool in your toolbox. So, when we're talking about tone, what are some of the things that you all are thinking about in terms of what it means? Let's start with the meaning.
[Howard] I treat tone in fiction as an emotional word. Like a happy tone, a sad tone. I mean, I come from a music background and so the domain of the word tone is very heavily overburdened. But within the domain of writing, I think of tone as a set of emotional beats that the prose will deliver independent of what kind of story it may be. You can have a horror story that has a cheerful tone.
[Dan] I'm not sure that I have a good answer for this. I think about tone in similar ways.
[Mary Robinette] Same.
[Dan] Yeah. That tone is... tends to be primarily emotional for me. And I love picking tones that are not happy.
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] Really? Shocking!
[Dan] As exhibited in most of my books. I am really taken by the idea of sadness. I love sadness as, like, a tonal texture in which to tell a story. Dealing with loss, dealing with sadness, dealing with whether or not it is worth hoping for something. This was all long before I developed depression. But I find that to be such a fun thing to play with. I guess I need to ask, though, what you mean by the meaning of the tone?
[Mary Robinette] So, for me, when I'm thinking about tone… Very similar, that it's the emotion. That it tends to have words associated with it, like, oh, this has a bouncy tone, or a loving tone, or a scary tone. But I also think that you can talk about tone in a large-scale thing. It's like, this is the tone of the book. When you open the book, you're like, Nnnn, I am in for a horror thing. That it can hint at the genre, it can hint at this is the emotion that I'm going to have when I walk away from the book. But I also think that it can be within a scene. We sometimes talk about the dark night of the soul, which is a specific tone. That there's… Like, there's a specific mood, there's a vibe that's going on. I'm not sure that tone and vibe are that different, honestly. But it exists in the same way that in a horror book where you… Instead of having the all is lost moment, you have the aha, you're going to get away… Nope, nope. You get sucked back in…
[Dan] Yeah.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] To hell. And so, there are places where you're going to lay two tones against each other. But the overall tone of the whole piece, the overall vibe, the sensation, the experience that the reader is going to have… That… There's… Um… It's still coloring that contrasting moment.
[Dan] Yes. I see what you mean now. I'm thinking about my book, Partials, where I establish the tone right off the bat, the very first scene, very first chapter, is about a dead baby. The plague that has killed everyone is still around, and the baby is born and passes away. And it's horrible, and that's part of the point, is because I want to establish right up front that is the tone that we are dealing with in this book. Which is not to say that the entire book will be dismal. In fact, most of the book is much more upbeat than that. Because another thing that I was specifically trying to play with in that series was the idea that the adults who remember the world that we lost our always sad and angry about it, whereas the kids who have grown up post-apocalypse, this is the only world they've ever known. They are finding joy in ways that the adults never do. And so there is… That was the easiest best way to get that juxtaposition across was to present the horrible thing and then show the different reactions that everyone in the book has to it. And so that kind of overriding sense of this is a world where babies die is important to establish the stakes, to establish what the emotions are going to be like. But then it also makes the joy and the happiness that the main characters experience that much more meaningful, because you know what they are feeling joy in spite of.
[Howard] Yeah. I am… I keep tripping over just the word tone in context with my music background. And I'm thinking of pieces of music where what fiction, in prose, we would call tone, in music we would call timbre. We would call maybe texture… When you have the brass all standing on a note versus when you have the strings all standing on a note. It's very, very different. That is analogous to, in your prose, the word choice. The line level word choice. But Dan, when you talk about the content of… I am telling the story of a baby dying, that is the minor key versus the major key, the tri-tone versus the dominant seven. That is the tone of the content as opposed to the tone of the turn of phrase. And as a humorist, I'm always balancing the two of those, because if I take the tri-tone, if I take the very dissonant tall jazz nineteenth chord and play it with nothing but woodwinds and harps, that's almost silly. And it's light, and it's airy, and I love taking the tone of my words, the tone of my prosaic turns of phrase, and contrasting them against the tone of the content of what I'm writing. That is a chewy delight for me that I just never tire of doing.
[Dan] Oh, man, that's one of my favorite things to do.
[Mary Robinette] Absolutely.
[Dan] If I can get a reader to feel two contrasting emotions at the same time, I know I have succeeded at something.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So, as we're talking, you've made me think about a thing that was happening when I was working on Martian Contingency that goes back to the last episode where we were talking about authorial intent. I honestly, when I sat down to write that, what I wanted to do, I just wanted to write a cozy. I just wanted to… Like, my characters have been having a really tough time. I just wanted them to have a nice time on Mars. I just wanted to write about let's have a party. Let's have meals. This is… Let's grow some plants. This is what I wanted to write. And also, the book before that in the series is Relentless Moon which is a really intense thriller. And I knew that that motion for the reader, that coming into this tone of we're growing some plants, that the complete lack of tension was not going to work. So I had to come up with a tone and a reason… Like, I had to come up with an authorial intention for it. But I came up with a tone of tension and keeping tension on my characters all the way through. But most of the plot points, most of the things that are actually happening in the book, I am… Like, there are multiple parties in this book. There's multiple discussions of clothing and sexy fun times and food and gardening. And I'm masking it under this tone of tension. I have created the tension using authorial intent and all of the other tools that we've been talking about. But I had to put that tone in of oh, no, things are going to go terribly, terribly wrong, and I did that on the first page when I had my character looking at the beautiful sky and thinking how lovely it is, and then think, but of course, this was space, and in space, something always goes wrong. And using that contrasting tone between those two things to create tension for the reader that I then play with through the whole book.
 
[Mary Robinette] Speaking of creating contrast, we are going to take a pause now. And when we come back, we're going to talk more about how to actually use this concept.
 
[Mary Robinette] So I find that when I am learning a new tool, that one of the things that works for me is to deal with it on a fairly small… Small level. And then I can scale it up to see how it works on something bigger. So when you are talking about the tone of a sentence, what are the pieces that were using to manipulate the tone of a sentence?
[Howard] Assonance and dissonance… Or assonance and consonants. Repeated vowel sounds, repeated consonant sounds. Or the absence thereof. Putting emphasis… Almost like rhymes. Words with similar emphatic patterns, similar accent patterns. Putting rhymes in. Emphasized and non-emphasized places. If this sounds like poetry, I'm so sorry.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] That's kind of the way my brain works. But when I'm crafting, when I'm really trying to craft one sentence that matters, the whole shape, the lilt, the beat, the song of the sentence is governed by every one of these pieces. And… I mean, I can't think about that for every sentence I write, for an entire book, but it's when I know, gosh, like, first line, I have to establish tone. I will shape that sentence very, very carefully.
[Dan] Yeah. A lot of it is also sentence length, word length. Am I using big, long words, am I using short ones? How much punctuation is in there? There's all of these little tools you can use to change whether a sentence feels very fast and punchy, whether it feels fast and simple, whether it feels long and mellifluous. Lots of word length and sentence length and punctuation are tools that I use all the time.
[Howard] The tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, bells.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah.
[Howard] Ah. So tasty.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah, and it is that like word choice, sentence structure, the imagery that I choose. Those are the things that I will look at. The difference between describing a fallen leaf is moldy or golden red. Like, those are both leaves that are dead, but they convey a different tone. So, some of what I'm also looking at is shared context.
[Dan] Yes!
[Laughter]
[Howard] [garbled] when you say shared context. I lean into sensory details. We often forget when we're writing to describe what a room smells like. What a small room sounds like, when empty as you walk through it, versus a large room, versus the great outdoors when you walk… Those are different acoustic spaces. They… At least… Okay, I have an audio engineering background, I can't not hear these things. But I think even to the untrained ear, you can tell if you're in a small room versus a large room, even if the lights are out. And if the lights are out, and the experience the character is having is hearing that they have stepped from a small alcove into a larger room, you've established the tone. And it's probably pretty cool.
 
[Mary Robinette] You're making me think about and wonder if our readers can tell the difference between the episodes that we record when we are all sitting in the same room, which we are doing right now, and the ones where we are on zoom and we are separated, we're distant.
[Howard] And I think the answer to that question is Alex wants the answer to be no…
[Laughter]
[Howard] [garbled] That's the guy who masters our episodes, and so masterfully masks the sounds of the ship or the sounds of the…
[Mary Robinette] But it…
[Howard] Lawnmower outside my window.
[Dan] Yeah, but there's so much more to it than that. There is how much we step on each other. Like, just now, you were still talking and I talked over you. And when we record on Zoom, we tend to not do that as much. Or two people will start out talking at the same time, and then stop, like there's a lot of…
[Yup... bup... nup...]
[Dan] Very weird tonal etiquette kind of things that we do that are very different.
[Mary Robinette] And these are the kinds of very small nuanced things that often a reader won't notice, there won't be a conscious piece of it. So, sometimes you're going into a scene and you may not have a conscious thought, as you are writing, about what this tone is going to be. And this is something that I think you can go back and layer in later. You can add in… If you want a little bit of tension, you can look at the way the characters are interacting with each other, you can look at what are the… Where am I adding in words like tintinnabulation to direct our attention.
[Howard] To the first line.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] You've got my attention.
[Laughter]
[Howard] You have got my attention. If you describe something, if you describe a car as cherry-red, or if you describe a car as lipstick red, or blood red, it might… I mean, those might all be the same color of car to your mind's eye, but to the reader, the blood red car is in a very different book than the cherry-red car.
[Mary Robinette] I think that that, Howard, actually is a great segue for us talking about homework.
 
[Mary Robinette] What I want you to think about is to take this idea of tone. Just thinking about it in terms of these very broad things that we're talking about, word choice, sentence structure, the feeling that you want the reader to have. And I want you to have your character do an action. They're just going to have a very simple thing. We're going to write a little vignette in which a character is pouring tea for a beloved partner. I want you to try for a joyful tone. Everything in this is just joy. The tea is joyful. Everything is joyful. Think about the word choices, the sentence structure, the way the character… What the characters notice. The imagery that you're showing us. And I want you to do it again. But I want you to try for a tone of terror. It's still tea, it is still a beloved partner. One character is pouring tea for the other. And there is a sense of terror for the entire scene.
 
[Mary Robinette] You're out of excuses. Now go write. 
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Writing Excuses 20.29: Authorial Intent
 
 
Key Points: Authorial Intent, or Why am I writing this? Message versus content. Features inform, benefits sell. Execution. Macro level versus micro level. Area of intention. What do I want to achieve? Theme and meaning are often heady cerebral things, but why is very visceral. Sit down and do more writing. The intention that you have when you start a book does not have to be the intention that you have when you later. Make sure authorial intention and character intention are lined up. Make sure you know why those scenes are in the form (genre, etc.) that you are working in. 
 
[Season 20, Episode 29]
 
[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.
 
[Season 20, Episode 29]
 
[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.
[Howard] Authorial Intent. 
[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.
[Howard] I'm Howard.
[Dan] And I'm Dan.
 
[Howard] And we are gonna talk to you about this particular did this little aspect of the lens of Why called authorial intent. AKA Why are you writing this book? Or this thing? Or this scene, this chapter, this screen play, this whatever? 
[Mary Robinette] Line of dialogue.
[Howard] This line of dialogue.
[Chuckles]
[Howard] I want to start with an example from my marketing background. And the example is message versus content in advertising. The message for an auto ad is like this car will make you sexy. But they can't just come out and say that. That's their intent. This car will make you sexy. Their intent is for you to buy the car. The content has to say it subtly. How do you intend a book and then not heavy-handedly just stamp Authorial Intent all the way through it on every page? 
[Chuckles]
[Howard] How do you do better than the auto advertiser does?
[Dan] Well, you're talking about advertising now which is reminding me of my old advertising days. And one of the advertising maxims that gets shared around a lot is features inform, but benefits sell. Like, you can talk about all the things the car does, that's not going to sell the car. But what will the car do for you? That's what will sell the car. And now I'm thinking about that with stories that we tell. I can absolutely think to myself about what the theme is, what the meaning is, what the structure is, all of the stuff that I have put into it. That is not going to make you as a reader enjoy the thing. That is not going to sell the book to you. Whereas the execution of it all absolutely will. And so for me author intent has a lot of different meanings. Because some of it is what have I put into this, what am I trying to say with this? But a lot of it is also just I haven't explored this type of character before, and it is my intention to give this very different type of character or setting… It is my intent to explore this kind of magic or this kind of conflict. Those are more of the benefits. That's the execution, and that's what I think is going to grab readers.
 
[Mary Robinette] I… I find myself that when I'm thinking about like grabbing readers or something like that… But I often do not think about the why of the book. Like, why on a macro level. Because honestly most of the time my why is Cool! I love this idea.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] Like, that's my why for writing it.
[Howard] I get to write another book?
[Mary Robinette] Great! It's like Dragons! Yay! That's my intention. Like, I just want to play… Spend a couple of months playing with dragons. That's my why.
[Howard] Can we just put another pin in that and say that's absolutely valid?
[Mary Robinette] I hope so.
[Laughter]
[Howard] That is enough why for me.
[Mary Robinette] Right. But when I get into the book, for me, when I'm thinking about why, that's where I start thinking about how I'm engaging with the reader. And I'm thinking about something that Jane [Espenson?] Calls the area of intention. Which is the… She was talking about this when you were… With jokes. Why… What am I trying to do with this joke? Why is the character doing this? And I find that this idea with the area of intention helps me make decisions on a line by line basis on why this scene is in the book. And what I often in thinking about is, for my why is, what effect do I want to have on the reader? What conversation do I want to engage with? If I think about why on a macro scale, it is that what conversation do I want to have, what question am I asking? But most of the time, when I am using why personally, it is not on the big project level. Because most of the time that upper-level intention really is just Nifty!
 
[Howard] Dan?
[Dan] Yes?
[Chuckles]
[Howard] Why?
[Dan] Why? Well, so the project that I'm working on right now… Middle grade fantasy. The intention behind there, the why of the book, why am I writing this book… We've talked about theme and meaning before, and there is theme there that I've got something that I'm trying to say with the book and we don't need to go into that because I think that those discussions where they get into the very strict details, are kind of boring for readers. They're English class kind of stuff. Whereas why am I telling the story in this particular way…
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[Dan] Well, because I got very excited about it. I was reading a… Some kind of peripheral material to Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion and talking about the land of Eriador, which is the land west of the Misty Mountains and how it is basically a vast unpopulated wasteland that used to be a huge kingdom, that used to be two huge kingdoms. And now there's basically Rivendell and the Shire and the Grey Havens and nothing else, of any particular import. And that, for whatever reason, the idea of this vast lonely land completely captured my imagination. And so why am I telling this story in the way I'm telling it? Because I wanted to capture that almost post-apocalyptic fantasy kind of idea. The idea that this takes place not in a bustling kingdom, not in an enchanted forest, but in this huge empty wasteland where there's just a couple of little villages here and there and very little else. And capturing that feeling, capturing that tone, that is absolutely my intention for the book.
 
[Mary Robinette] And I think that that's… Like, when you're talking about that… What you made me think of are some of the things we talked about when we were in our Who module. That in many ways, we're talking about the author's motivation, the author's stakes and goals. Your goal is to explore this, the Rivendell, and so the why, for me, as an author, is, like, what do I want to achieve? Why am I making these decisions? And it usually goes back to this… To a core idea of some sort. For me, it was the Thin Man in space with the Spare Man.
[Dan] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] There's a mood that I want to evoke for the reader. There's… Which will be talking about when we get to tone. But there's something at the core of it, and experience that I want to have and that I want to share with the reader. And, for me, that is often the why, is about the experience. Where is theme and meaning is about the heady cerebral things.
[Howard] Yeah.
[Mary Robinette] But the why for me is often very visceral.
[Dan] And that's such a… That's why I was going back to this old advertising maxim. Features inform and benefits sell. How fast can this car go is a very different question from what does it feel like to drive this car. What does it feel like to go that fast? What does it feel like when the windows are rolled down and you're on that twisting highway and the radio is on your favorite station? That is such a visceral experential thing, and that's what people are looking for. Beyond just the boring numbers or the high level engineering that goes into it.
[Howard] Let's take a break for a moment, and when we come back, I'm going to say a thing.
[Laughter]
[Mary Robinette] Why, Howard? Why?
[Laughter]
[Howard] That's a keeper.
 
[Howard] Earlier, Dan, you said discussions like in English class are just boring. And it occurred to me that if in my English classes in high school, we had discussions with the answer to authorial intent was the author wanted to write this book so that they could sell the book and make money… That never one time, never even one time, came up. My intent, in many cases, when I sit down to write something is, I intend to write anything that will give someone an experience, just when they pick it up and read the back cover, that leads to them buying it, that leads to them reading it, and enjoying it, that then plants a hook within them that will get them to buy other things that I write. And that's a pretty deep-seated intent, and that's not something that I would ordinarily state openly in any of my marketing copy, because it sounds a little insidious. And yet, it's a valid intent. It's every bit as valid as dragons are cool. And the Shire exists in the wasteland, and I want to explore a wasteland. My question now is what are the weird intents we would never talk about in English class, but that are perfectly valid? What are our motivations to write that are just out there?
[Mary Robinette] I mean… I guess… So here's the thing for me. On a certain level, I don't know how useful it is, because, like, I can tell you, like, that my intention is dragons are cool. I had a dream. This is the why of it. The Ghost Talkers. Why? Why does Ghost Talkers exist? I had a dream, and then I was like, oh, I think there may be a story there. And I teased it out, and other parts of Ghost Talkers are there because I put a Doctor Who cameo in every novel, and that's why. Like, why is it there? Because I needed a chuckle. But, so, for me, I think the why can be so personal to the reader. And the question that I'm interested in, and that I hope that we can kind of play with some with this intention is how are you using that intention? You've got an intention, but how are you using it? How do you use it to make decisions when you're measuring against the choice of making it feel like Rivendell versus in space, how do you measure that?
[Howard] At some level for me, the decision that… The authorial intent needs to lead to a decision on the author's part to sit down to and do more writing and I want to have... I want my intent to be compelling enough to me that it keeps me moving. And I feel like being able to… And I guess this is my intent for at least this segment of the episode… I want our listeners to evaluate their intents and to realize, one, hey, that's a valid intention, and two, I'm allowed to keep going back to that well if that's what gets me into my chair to keep writing.
 
[Mary Robinette] So with that in mind, here's the thing that I think is really important. The intention that you have when you begin the story does not have to be the intention that you have later in the book. One of the problems that I think happens to writers over and over again, especially those of us with ADHD, is that it gets boring after a while.
[Chuckles]
[Mary Robinette] And I am not the same person today that I was yesterday. Yesterday I was extremely fatigued. I had had to do a bunch of teaching that I had not planned on doing. I was… I had been out in the sun, and the things that were interesting to me, the things that motivated me, were very different from today. So, for me, when… If you're talking about that kind of author… That's… For me, that's not authorial intention, that's authorial motivation. Like, what's going to get me to sit down in a chair. That, for me, I think every day you can ask yourself, why is this story important to me today? And it doesn't have to be why it was important to you yesterday. If I am trying to write a story… Here's an extremely personal example, Martian Contingency came out this year. I started writing that book and had ideas for it. And in the course of writing it, my mother who had Parkinson, went into hospice. As I was finishing that book. My authorial intention at that point became I have to finish this before mom dies or I will not pick it up again. That is not a sustainable authorial intention. When I finished writing it, it was months before I did revisions on it. I'm a completely different person. I was the one who's grieving. I was the one who's recovering. And that is a different person who is going through it. So this is why I feel like when we're talking about these big broad level authorial intentions, it's good to think about it and I think that you can use it to say why am I sitting down to write today. But the reader can't tell when that book comes out that that was my intention. So, for me, the thing… That's why I keep saying I find that thinking about it on a micro level of why do I have this sentence, why do I have this paragraph, why do I have this chapter? That is dealing with the person who is in the chair in that moment.
[Howard] Yeah. I actually have a spreadsheet to track those things. My authorial intent for this scene, this scene, this scene. What is this supposed to do? What is my intention for these things? But, yeah, you're right, at some level, it's authorial motivation for me to sit down in front of the spreadsheet and look at today's list of intentions for what needs to be written.
[Dan] Um… We're recording this on the cruise, the Writing Excuses cruise, and I just taught a class yesterday about fight scenes and why I think they're terrible.
[Mary Robinette] I really enjoyed that class. FYI.
[Dan] Thank you very much.
[Mary Robinette] And I have like… I, like, was taking notes and I'm very excited to talk to you more about that… But carry on. Please.
[Dan] So, one of the things that we talk about in there is why are you putting this fight scene…
[Mary Robinette] Yes.
[Dan] Into your story? Why are you putting this action scene into your story? And one of the comments that we got… Several of the comments that we got where exactly what I expected, which is, well, I've read better books before, and there were fight scenes at this part of it. Or I watched movies that I love and there's a fight scene at this part of the story. And I feel like, so often, that is our intention, and that is a very shallow intention. When we get to that level of thinking, why is this scene in the book, why is this chapter in the book, and if your answer is because I think it probably ought to be… I mean, yes, you might be right, but that's a terrible way to start. And that's not a helpful way to go into this scene. If you're writing it out of obligation, without a specific purpose, if the purpose is on… If it's purely tautological. This scene exists because I know that it should exist. You need something more than that. There needs to be some kind of question that you are asking or answering, there needs to be some kind of exploration of who the characters are or a revelation about the setting or the technology or the magic or something. There needs to be a specific intention beyond, well, I've read other books and they have this kind of scene at this point in the story, so I'm putting one in.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah. And I find that there's the authorial intention and then there's the character intention. And often, when a story is falling flat, it's because the authorial intention… The author is, like, I need the character to do this. I need the character to have this fight right now. And the character… Like, there is no sensible reason that they would do that. Their intention is to try to… Based on everything that you the author have set up to that point, has them pointed in a different direction, but you force them to do it without providing them sufficient motivation, sufficient intention, all of the things we're talking about before with character. So, for me, again, it's like with the author, what is my goal for the story? That is the why that I'm interested in. What is my goal for the story? What is my goal in this moment?
 
[Howard] One of the things that you brought up, Dan, is the importance of understanding the why of the form in which we are working. Why are there action scenes in movies? Why are there fight scenes in other books? Why are there… Why are any of these things… Why are there happily ever after's in romance? And if you don't understand some of those whys, if you don't understand some of the intent of the authors who have come before you, the intent to ape what they have done by making your own book follow the same pattern is going to be broken. Because it's not what you mean. It's not…
[Dan] Yeah.
[Howard] You don't understand why this was done and so you're doing it. I mean, I don't want to suggest that you're writing your book for the wrong reasons, but you might be writing that part of the book in the wrong way because of wrong reasons.
[Dan] Well, and that's often why someone says that a story feels formulaic is because the formula has become more important to the author than the characters, than the plot. Because we are following this because we know we're supposed to and not because the characters would naturally do these kinds of things.
[Mary Robinette] Yeah, and that's why one of the things that we're doing this season is a little unusual, that we are… We're doing a lot of really, really deep dives and we're going to do this whole extremely deep dive into structure in season 21, where we're talking about the what and the how of our big questions. And it is hard to evaluate something when you don't know why it exists.
 
[Howard] And I think that might be a good place for the homework. You ready for the homework? Take your work in progress, and in two sentences, describe to yourself why you are writing this. It might be a scene, it might be a chapter, it might be the whole book, it might be a screenplay. Two sentences. Why you are writing this? And then, for bonus points, one sentence. Why is that the reason that you're writing this?
 
[Howard] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 

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