wetranscripts | Entries tagged with writing

Writing Excuses 20.26: Gaming as a Writing Metaphor

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-26-gaming-as-a-writing-metaphor

Key points: What's the difference between experiencing a narrative as a game or prose? Choice, direct agency? Narrative games? Energy and complexity? Games are simulations. What are the actions, what are the verbs? Buy-in! Between games and writing, there's a middle ground of control in games. Competence. Not all books or games are for everybody. What makes a narrative game? Obvious narrative? Present me with a story, don't make me randomly discover it. Make room for the audience. Let them make their own interpretations, draw their own conclusions. How much do I love the characters? How much do I care what happens to them? What are the levers in your game or narrative? Invite the reader in...

[Season 20, Episode 26]

[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.

[Season 20, Episode 26]

[Howard] This is Writing Excuses.

[Erin] Gaming as a writing metaphor.

[Howard] I'm Howard.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] And I'm Dan.

[Erin] And we get to talk about gaming...

[DongWon] Yay! Prepare for a six hour long episode.

[Erin] Yeah. Yeah, I know. I was like, this is actually sort of hard because there's so much that...

[Dan] Yeah.

[Erin] You can talk about when it comes...

[Howard] This play-through of Writing Excuses...

[Erin] Exactly.

[Dan] Kind of a speed run.

[Erin] Oh, my gosh. Yes. But I've been thinking about sort of what is it that separates the way that we game from the way that we write, the way that we experience prose narration from the way we experience being in a game. And the thing that I... the reason I really love games is I actually think that sometimes giving the person experiencing the narrative more choice and more direct agency over what happens, whether that's true or you just make them feel that it's true, changes the way that we experience story. And, for me, that's the big difference between them. But I'm curious, for you all, like, what makes you pick up a game instead of a book for that day? Like, what is the difference between having the same story as a television show versus a game that that show was based on?

[DongWon] Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I love narrative, but I don't love narrative games a lot of the time, like, if a game is very story heavy, I'll often be like… Like I tried to play Last of Us a little while ago, and I just was like, I'm putting this down, I'm going to watch the TV show. Because it… The way it was giving me the story felt so slow compared to what I wanted in terms of my ability to consume a narrative, and then all the opportunities for player choice were so constrained to things that felt like they didn't matter, a.k.a., how I searched the drawers in this room versus the big narrative stuff I was interested in, which is, what do we do about this outbreak plague situation? Right? And so, I think, for me, when it comes to what am I looking for from game experience, I want something that's more energetic and more complex than you can get from somebody telling me a story. Right? So this is why I love FromSoft games so much, where I build the narrative by interacting with the world rather than them telling me what the story is.

[Howard] I think it was… It must've been 15 years ago now. I was at a convention and had the opportunity to go out to lunch with Steve Jackson. And he dropped a bit of wisdom that I have never been able to shake. He said, "All games are physics simulations." And I thought, now, that's not true. That's… Wait. Crap. Every game… Chess! Is a physics simulation, at some level, all games are simulations. And so, when I sit down, when I think of gaming or playing a game as a metaphor for writing, I often think, why would I want to play a game like Burger Time instead of working fast food? Why would I want to play a simulation of fast food restaurants instead of working fast food? Well, because I don't want to smell like hamburgers at the end of the day. But these simulations that we play can teach us things. And in many cases, they can teach us the same things that the job would teach us, only without the risk of smelling like [frieda?].

[Erin] And, I think that also they create a game play loop. So if you're writing a game, the main thing you have to figure out is what are the actions of the game? What are the things that the game lets you do?

[DongWon] What are the verbs?

[Erin] What are the verbs of the game? And so, like, in a… And it limits them. There are always less than the verbs that you can experience in life. Because a game is not going to be able to, like, do, like, and then I scratched my nose for three seconds for no reason. I mean, who knows… Maybe in the future. But it's hard to get to that level of granularity. And so, they then have to make those verbs things that you are going to want to choose. And, it's funny, I'm thinking back to, like, weeks and weeks and weeks ago, when we talked about second person and how second person requires buy-in. And games are often a second person medium, and, similarly, you have to get the player to buy-in to this is the situation I want to be in. These are the verbs that I want to be able to use to navigate that situation. Like, you may not like the… I love a narrative game. But where it feels like I don't have enough verbs to, like…

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Move this narrative forward. Whereas I'm like, oh, actually, for me, the listen, the experience, the watch it unravel is a verb that is one that works well for me. Which is why different people have different desires and loves of games. Like, some people like a puzzle game, like I do. Some people like a narrative, some people like I want to shoot the thing from a weird angle.

[DongWon] I mean, this is why tabletop can be so interesting too, because even in this case, buy-in is so important and difficult to get. So when you're trying to get someone to play a new game system they've never played before, just the lift of getting them to understand what the core metaphors and verbs of the game are can be three hours of sitting there and walking someone through the session or whatever it is. And so how you get that buy-in in terms of, like, what are the world building hooks, what are the character hooks, what's the setting hooks, to get them on board with the idea of these are interesting verbs I want to interact with. I think that can be such a challenge with really effective game writing.

[Dan] Yeah. Erin, I'm glad that you enjoy narrative games…

[Laughter]

[Erin] I'm buying them all.

[Dan] Because I'm with DongWon on this one. And I find that I don't like the way games tell stories often. Which is strange to me, and I'm trying to figure out why, and I don't know if I can articulate it. But, relating this back to writing, I… There's an interesting middle ground of control. And we talked about this a little bit. Whereas I'm going to just go and work in a burger restaurant, then I have control over what I'm doing. Maybe not as much, because I am an employee. Right? Where is if I'm going to read a book about that, I have no control whatsoever. And games exist in that very intriguing middle ground, where there's a lot of interaction, there's a lot of input from both sides. And that's… Writing for that is very different.

[Erin] Yeah. I was just thinking about, like, the competence thing as well. Like, we people love a competent character. If you want people to love your characters, one way to do it is to show them being really good at something. Because for some reason, we like it. We like feeling competent. And in a game, like in a burger… There's a game that I play on VR called Star Tenders, where you are tending bar for aliens. And the entire game is just like increasingly complex drink orders, that you have to try to make before your customers get mad…

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And wander off in an alien type way. And so what I like about it is, like, you're not expected to master it the first time.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It's like learn… You get to learn a skill and then they add a little bit more. They had a slightly more complex thing, and all of a sudden, like, the verb that was hard for you in the beginning is one of a much larger sentence that you're able to manage. And that gives us a feeling of competence that really makes us feel like we are able to advance. But I think it's hard to do in prose. Like, you can show a character going through that journey, and have you really relate to that character, and therefore you go through that. But in games, because you're the one who has to make the physical motion, it often feels like in that physics simulation, like, you got a chance to level up.

[Howard] I had a friend tell me years ago. It was the very first of the Batman Arkham games. And he said, "Oh, my gosh, this game was so good." And he described this one scene that plays out. And he says, "And I was Batman. I got to be every bit… I got to do all of the Batman. I did all of the moves, I used all the tools, I used all the whatever." And I played that game and realized, I do not get to be Batman. I was not good enough. I did not learn fast enough. And I got tired and I moved away from it. And that's fine. You play a game for a little while, you decide it's not for you, you play something else. But the idea that the simulation of whatever can map out players differently, where a player gets to have an experience that they've been dreaming about their whole life and maybe didn't know it. My friend Joey, a Batman book would not have made him feel the same way that game made him feel.

[DongWon] Well, and I think that kind of ties into what makes Hades such a big success, is the way they tied narrative to failure. Right? When you fail, you get a little more piece of story, you get a little more piece of interaction. And then you repeat the loop. Right? Like, they were able to build the storytelling into the road like nature of the game. As you go back through it, you learn more about the world, you learn more about the characters, deepening your investment in the character and in their relationships when you do fail. So where something like the Rock City game kind of falls down is, if you fail at being Batman, now you just don't get to progress. You don't get more Batman because you were a bad Batman. If you fail at being [Zacharias], then you're… He's a failure. That's the whole point of the story. That is, you engaging with it and getting more of it as you build those skills and learn. Right? So, like, whether it's your aliens walking away from you in an alienating way because they're upset, or it's being spotted by the criminals because you're a bad Batman, like, the way in which we participate in the stories has to be fluid in that way, or has to be a rewarding experience in that way, or our buy-in starts to break down.

[Erin] I was laughing when you said that because I remembered the time I tried to play Grand Theft Auto, and there's a tutorial quest where you just get on a skateboard, and I don't drive…

[Chuckles]

[Erin] And I'm not good at driving related tasks. I could not finish. Like, it's a thing that they mean for it to take three seconds…

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And, like an hour and a half later, I was like, obviously, this game was not meant for me because I can't even get a car…

[Howard] I have decided that my… I should not be stealing automobiles.

[DongWon] I think that comes back to books in that way though, because not… Books unfold… Not all books are for everybody. Right? Like, what makes sense to you and what you have buy-in for and what is an engaging world building character narrative to you will be really different than the next reader. Right? In the same way, that a game about stealing cars is probably not for someone who has never driven a car before. Right? And I think that can be true in fiction as well. And understanding who your reader is is also really important there.

[Erin] All right. I'm going to interrogate you about narrative games and yellow boxes, but first, we're going to press pause.

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[Erin] And now we're back. And so… Un-pause.

[DongWon] How was that load screen for you?

[Erin] Hope you enjoyed it. So [garbled] interested in is I'm like people who don't like narrative games? I must find out why? As somebody who enjoys writing the narratives of games. And I think it's interesting, like, the wanting to tell a story versus how much gamers experience it is fascinating. If you write for games, you know that you're writing the item description that, like, 89 percent of people will just be like, nope. X out. It's like you're writing the dialogue that people are trying to skip in order to get to their next action. But I'm wondering, like, when you say I don't like narrative games, I'm wondering what makes something a narrative game? Is it just how obvious it is in its narrative? Is it an outside category? Like, what does that mean for you?

[Dan] Well, I don't think it comes down to the obvious nature of it, because I, for example, really don't like Hades because it is not presenting me with a story. I mean, that's not the only reason. But it's a story you have to discover. And that's a place where DongWon and I diverge, because I don't like that in games, I enjoy being told this is the story that we have to fulfill, go do it. Here's what this is about, go do it. And the idea that I have to just randomly discover what the story is by talking to people or by reading books that I find laying around the environment always just rubs me the wrong way.

[Howard] Sorry. I'm giggling over here. Railroad Tycoon, The Linear Narrative.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] I… No, I totally feel you here. One of the things that I love about games where a lot of the story is in front of you, but there's a lot of open space is that… And no, fair listeners, I'm not going to become a streamer of games… But I will often talk back to the characters on screen and say stuff that is just funny to me and is sort of in universe or not in universe, and I get joy out of that. Even though the story is maybe a little flat, I enjoy fluffing it up a little on my own.

[Erin] And thinking about this as a metaphor for writing, it's interesting, because it's, like, how strong… How, like, is the power of the narrative? Like, how much is the narrative saying, like, a story is happening here?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] How much is it making you discover it? Because there are prose pieces where the story is not, like, a very clear, like, plot point to plot point type of thing.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But it feels a little more like you're kind of wandering through and story is occurring. And it's interesting thinking about, like, how much are we guiding, how much are we controlling our readers? I mean, we're always controlling everything, but how much is that control felt by them versus is it just feels like they're having to put it together for themselves?

[DongWon] Well, I'm getting on my soapbox for a second here of my obsession with FromSoft games. Right? And so, these are the Dark Souls games, Blood-Borne, Elven Ring, and the reason I love these games so much is they're deeply authored experiences. Like, there's no question that there isn't a very specific point of view behind those blows and that they are creating an experience for the player that has thematics and characters and all the things we expect from story. But you're just getting that story in big cut scenes, where people are talking to each other and there's story being told to you. You're having to discover that story by doing things like reading the item descriptions, by piecing together, like, oh, I thought this boss. This boss was like… Said this one thing that's related to this other boss. Like, you're trying to, like, weave string theory together, the world building and the plot. And I recognize that it's not for everybody, and completely understand why. But what I love about it is I think it gets something… Or gets at something that's really true about all storytelling that we do, which is you have to make room for the audience. Right? And this is a thing I talk about a lot as I'm putting together an actual play show and things like that. One thing I talk about with my players and with the rest of my cast is we need to make room at the table for the audience. There is a fifth seat at the table here, and it's the audience who is here participating in this with us. And it's why I love actual play shows like Dimension 20 or [What's My Number?] or Friends at the Table, because they understand that I am also a participant in this story in an active way. Right? And I think that's true of a book, too. When you write a book, you're writing a book for someone. You have to understand that the reader is there picking it up and interacting with it. Now, their verb is limited to turn the page and continue reading. They have one verb, which is keep reading, don't keep reading. Right? How they feel about that, how they engage with it on a moment to moment basis can change and evolve. But the more you make space for them to make their own interpretations, to engage in a certain way, and to draw their own conclusions from stuff, I think that's where interaction with fiction can be so exciting and so deep and rich.

[Erin] It's funny, thinking about, like, the verbs of games, I'm reminded of… So I used to do writing for Zombies Run, which is a game with only the verb run.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so, years and years and years of narrative, of, like, small scene of, like, people talking and then something has to happen at the end of the scene to force you to run. And to go to the next thing. Which is like… Was really interesting in figuring out what are the ways to continue to get audience buy-in. Because, if you think of tabletop games, some have extraordinarily complex mechanics that will take you…

[DongWon] Exactly.

[Erin] 10 years to figure out. Or, like that boardgame, where you're like, our first eight hour session…

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Is going to be figuring out…

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] How this boardgame works. And then, eventually, we'll become experts. But thinking about, do you need that level… Like, how much complexity is too much? Like… And that can be true in a game, but also in a narrative. How much just becomes distracting where it becomes about the experience of the narrative as opposed to the narrative itself.

[Howard] When we look at audience buy-in, it's useful to look at improvisational theater, where the audience is literally shouting suggestions at the stage. And if the audience is not engaged, the show falls flat pretty quickly. By the same token, comedy acts on stage in comedy clubs, the audience is buying in by laughing. They make noise. If the audience does not make noise, we say that the comedian is dying. Because that's what that experience is like. And if the audience is making noise, if there laughing all the way through, the comedian is killing. Why is it so violent? Probably because public speaking is the thing we're all scared of the most. And so we tie it to death this way. But the sense of audience buy-in is very, very visible in improvisational theater and in comedy clubs. And if you think about how important the audience participation is to the performers, and then look at what an audience means to you as a writer, that contrast might change the way you think about what you're writing.

[Dan] I've been sitting here trying to think about what narrative is in games I enjoy. And it comes back to a lesson that I have learned for my own writing, which is, how much do I love the characters? How much do I care about what happens to these characters? Because there are plenty of games, and I apologize for continuing to rip on Hades…

[Chuckles]

[Dan] Because it's a beloved game that everyone other than me adores.

[DongWon] You're alienating our whole audience.

[Dan] I know. I could not possibly have cared less about any of the characters in that, and so…

[DongWon] [gasp] Dash…

[Dan] I know. And so, playing the game didn't really hold a lot of appeal for me, after the basic gameplay loop, I figured out the narrative side of it didn't work for me. Whereas something like Cyberpunk 2077 and this… So much of this comes down to personal preference… Those characters I fell in love with. And I wanted to spend time with them. And so when I am doing my own writing, I… That's what I keep coming back to is the lesson I learned, which is, I'm asking my readers to spend however many hours it takes to read this book, to invite this character into their brain and spend time with them. It has to be somebody that they love and care about.

[DongWon] Well, it's so interesting, because I played Hades because I love the characters and I played a billion hours of Cyberpunk 2077… I really love that game, I play that game not for the characters but for the world. I find the characters… They're fine, I enjoy engaging with them a lot of time, but mostly, what I want to do is run around that city stealing and driving cars…

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] And…

[Erin] No!

[DongWon] Getting…

[Dan] Yeah.

[DongWon] In fights with weird criminals. Like, that's the thing that I really… Like, mechanically and vibes-wise, being in that world… To me, Cyberpunk is a game that's all about vibes. Like, the aesthetics of it, the culture of it, all of that are things that I really, really enjoy, and so… I think it's, like, also [garbled] the lesson when I say make room for your audience in terms of crafting your narrative experience, whether that's a game or novel or short story or a film, it's… You also can't predict what part of your story that people are going to attach to. Right? I know people who play Hades and have never read a single piece of the text… They just like the combat. They enjoy the mechanical aspect of the combat. And I know people who have never played an action game in their life that somehow saw credits on Hades, the thing that I, who play a lot of action games, have never been able to do, because they just love the characters so much that they just kept playing this thing and learned a whole set of skills that they never had before in their entire life. And so, watching what your audience will connect to is something you can't necessarily predict. Right? And you can't control for that. You can have guesses, you can have focuses, but that's why you kind of gotta chase your own interests as much as anything else.

[Howard] I… Dan, I remember a comment you made on the Borderlands games years ago, which was, yeah, this is cute games, and one of them is really fun, the one where you run around shooting things and exploring the world. And then there's the game of comparing red arrows and green arrows on your gear, and I don't like that game at all.

[Dan] Yeah.

[Howard] And…

[DongWon] 100 percent.

[Howard] And I love that principle, that there can be a thing that we just love that is inextricably fused to a thing we despise, and are we going to play anyway? Are we going to continue to consume or are we going to look for something that doesn't have the up down arrows game in it?

[DongWon] This is me and Destiny's death grip on my brain, but… Yeah.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] I think one of the reasons I really love games and game writing is because there are all these different levers you can be pushing in any narrative.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] You can be pushing the character lever, you can be pushing the world lever, you can be pushing the what are the actions lever, which is often a plot lever. But it's like in games, they're all sort of… They are more discrete. They feel more discrete from each other. Like, in a prose narrative, you can really weave in… Like, the world is happening, what the characters, with the action is all at once. But the way that games are designed, like, someone makes the world and then they sort of put characters in it who have their own set of actions. And they can't 100 percent control how you use those actions and that character to experience the world. And because of that, there are intersections that will happen that they will never be able to anticipate as public… Emergent gameplay is here. Somebody is having a gameplay experience you did not intend.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But they were able to find those connections in interesting different ways. And I think it's nice when we think about our stories to think about how are all the levers that we're pulling different? And, like, how… If we separate out the way that were talking about lenses, it's sort of a version of doing that, of thinking about what are all the different lenses, what are all the different levers, and how are we combining them in really interesting ways to make stories?

[DongWon] And also just letting… Learning to realize that you don't have full control over the audience experience. Right? And that they are going to bring their own lenses, they're going to bring their own verbs, the going to bring their own ways of interacting with the story to that experience. And once it's out of your hands, you don't get to tell people you're reading this wrong. Right? Or you can try. Sure. But, like, you're going to get…

[Howard] Feel free to say that. It's probably not going to work out the way…

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] And so I think one of the things that I found really exciting about this topic of gaming, not just because I clearly love games, as do we all, but because it is this thing that I think is really, really hard for people who create prose to wrap their heads around, is learning to… Not just, like, ease off of the control, but actively invite in the reader into making this experience with us. And I think learning how to do that is a thing that can really take your fiction from being exciting to truly connecting with a huge fan base.

[Erin] And with that, we're at the end of this game session. And we are going to move to the homework.

[Erin] And for the homework, I'm going to challenge you a little. There are probably folks who are listening to this who are like, I only… Last game I played was tag. But I would like you to think about… Take a project that you're working on and imagine that someone is making a game of it. And figure out what would that game be. What would be the actions that the characters would be doing? What would be the parts of the world that the game would be focused on? And just write out sort of, like, a here's the game of my amazing work of art. If you need help with this, you can look at things that are games that were made from things like Lord of the Rings game. Just read a description of it, see if anything comes to you. And then as you're writing that out, is there anything you've discovered about your story that was unexpected?

[Howard] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

mbarker

Writing Excuses 19.26: Bringing Falconry into Writing

From https://writingexcuses.com/19-26-bringing-falconry-into-writing

Key points: Falconry and writing. How do you become a falconer? A test, a patron, and facility inspection. How did you get started? Books! My Side of the Mountain, The Goshawk. What do you need to know? Husbandry, health, laws, vocabulary. Is the test local or national? State laws are different, so the test content is different. Where do you get a bird? Trap a first year bird, or buy from a captive breeder. Sensory details? The partnership, based on food. Talons, and ruffling feathers. Touch! What bothers you about writing about falconry? Skipping the husbandry and training. Honoring the animal? Be realistic. Mantling. Raptors are a core part of the ecosystem.

[Season 19, Episode 26]

[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Bringing Falconry into Writing.

[Mary Robinette] 15 minutes long.

[DongWon] Because you're in a hurry.

[Dan] And we're not that smart.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Mary Robinette] We are joined today by our special guest, Krista Hong Edwards.

[Krista] Hi. I'm Krista Hong Edwards. I'm a falconer here in Utah, and I also happen to be an English teacher. So, the opportunity to be on Writing Excuses is combining my two loves. I'm very excited to be here.

[Mary Robinette] We met Krista in 2023, when we ran the Writing Excuses Bear Lake, where we were doing animal husbandry and we had horses and falconry. She came out with her peregrine falcon sky and several other birds, and introduced us to the wonderful world of falconry. We wanted to bring that to a wider audience, so we invited Krista to come join us in talking about how to bring falconry into your writing. So, when you are… Like, first of all, how do you become a falconer?

[Laughter]

[Krista] Yeah. That's always the first question that's asked when people see this predatory bird on my arm. They look at her talons and her hooked beak and they want to know why do you want that thing on your arm? And how do you get that thing on your arm? It's quite an intense process, but once you break it down, it's a step-by-step process. So, here in the United States, you have to check off three items, I guess you might say. Depending on your state, it differs in the order in which you can do this. But the first thing you need to do is pass a 180 question test that is administered by your Department of wildlife, your fish and game division. After you pass that test, you then have to secure what's called a sponsor or a mentor, really. Someone who's been practicing falconry for a number of years who agrees to kind of take you under their wing, so to speak, and train you in this very historic and ancient art. Then, at that point, after you have your sponsor who's agreed, "Yes, I'll train this person," you can get your equipment and your facilities inspected. So it's verified by the fish and game division that you are qualified and that you have all of the necessary equipment. It's safe for the bird, and it's appropriate for the bird. At that point, you can get your license. So it takes quite a while.

[DongWon] So, I'm curious, what brought you, specifically, to this? Like…

[Yeah]

[DongWon] How did you end up becoming a falconer and what was your journey?

[Krista] Oh, it all started with books, right?

[Laughter]

[Krista] It always starts with books. So, there's a book that's relatively well known, quite a few people have read it in school. It's called My Side of the Mountain.

[DongWon] I was wondering if that is what you were going to say.

[Krista] Oh, yes.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Krista] Yes. I would honestly say about 75 percent of American falconers will credit Jean Craighead George, the author of that book, with their own falconry journey. If it wasn't Jean Craighead George, then it was T. H. White The Goshawk. There's quite a few falconry related books out there that exposed individuals who wouldn't normally know that this is something you can do into the world of falconry. So when I was about… I don't know, seven, eight, probably a little too young to be reading that level, but I saw the bird on the cover and I said, "I have got to have this book." I read it and I realized, oh, that's a thing!

[Chuckles]

[Krista] I, like, beyond just my parakeet which I had at home, I can have a peregrine falcon. So I told my parents, "I'm going to get a peregrine." They said, "Oh, not when you're living under our roof."

[Laughter]

[Krista] So I moved out, came out here to Utah, which happens to be a great paradise for raptors. Which means it's a great paradise to practice falconry. And started my journey here.

[Mary Robinette] Did you have a question?

[Dan] I was just laughing at the implication that you moved out of your parents home at eight years old…

[Laughter]

[Dan] To [garbled get a?] peregrine falcon.

[Krista] No. At eight years old, I determined I was going to get a peregrine falcon. At 18, I moved out to Utah. I'm originally from New Jersey, where it's quite industrial. Right? So I knew I wasn't going to be able to pursue my journey there with a peregrine.

[DongWon] We've got some raptors out there, but not exactly…

[Krista] Yeah.

[DongWon] For this purpose.

[Mary Robinette] So, when you were talking about it, you said 180 question test?

[Krista] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] 180 question test. I'm kind of curious, like, what sort of things do you need to know before you acquire a bird?

[Krista] Yes. That's a great question. So the test is really just to test your basic knowledge. The test goes over husbandry, it goes over health, it goes over laws, vocab… So, for example, the word cast in falconry could mean one of four different things. Do you know the four different things it could possibly mean?

[Mary Robinette] What are they?

[Laughter]

[Krista] What are they? It could mean to restrain the bird. It could mean the bird's pellets that it's coughing up. It could mean the action of bringing the pellet up. It could also mean… This when I don't understand why… It could also mean a group of birds that you're hunting together. So, if you have like two or more falcons or two or more hawks, it's a cast of hawks. So it's… And all spelled the same way.

[Mary Robinette] Of course they are.

[DongWon] Those are four very diverse meanings.

[Krista] Right.

[DongWon] Well, two of them are related, but the other ones… Yeah.

[Krista] But the other ones… Well, yeah. Again, I don't know how this vocab started. But it's been used for eons. Back in medieval times, they were using a cast of falcons and we still use it today.

[Dan] So, these questions that you have to do, how national or local is this test? Is someone in one particular state going to find a completely different…

[Krista] Yes.

[Dan] Process than what you just described?

[Krista] Abs… Well, not a different process, but the test questions themselves may differ.

[Dan] Okay.

[Krista] Because each state's laws are different. So you might be able to purchase the California Hawking club study guide, but that will real… The legal part of that will only apply to California. So if you try to take that legal part and let's say you're testing in Kentucky, you're going to fail that section of the test.

[Mary Robinette] I remember you saying at the workshop that some states you can only hunt birds that are not native to the region and others you can only hunt birds that are native to the region. Is that…

[Krista] Yeah. So each state also has restrictions on what species you can have. So, for example, here in Utah, we actually have a wide variety of birds that we can access. Some that you would never actually want to hunt with, because they're not exactly great birds to build a partnership with.

[Dan] Such as?

[Krista] Such as like the northern harrier. It's a really cool looking bird, look it up.

[Dan] Really beautiful bird. Yeah.

[Krista] It's gorgeous. But no one's ever hunted successfully with it, because they're just not wired to work with humans the way a red tailed hawk is or a peregrine falcon is. Then, meanwhile, you go out to… I think it's Connecticut and you cannot have an American Kestrel there. Which is interesting, because that's one of the most common starting birds here in the American West. So each state has its own laws and restrictions as well.

[Mary Robinette] Where do you get a bird? Like…

[Chuckles]

[Krista] I love that question. Because people are like I go to Petco and I don't see these things for sale. I'm like, yeah.

[Mary Robinette] It seems like that's not the norm.

[Krista] No, it's not the norm. Right. So there's two main ways you can get a bird of prey. Here in the United States, we actually have the privilege of being able to trap one from the wild. A lot of people at first are like, "Oh. No. Wait. Why do you want to trap one from the wild?" It's actually beneficial to the raptor population, because about 70 to 80 percent of them in the first year will not make it to their second year. Because the winter is harsh. If you don't catch something, on those cold nights, you might not make it to the next morning. So we are able to take first year birds. Not anything from the breeding population. That's actually illegal. But a first year bird that is going through its first molt, we are able to take from the wild and train for falconry. Alternatively, you can also get one from a captive breeder.

[Mary Robinette] So, Sky, your peregrine…

[Krista] She's captive bred.

[Mary Robinette] Okay. What are the… What are kind of some of the sensory details that you think about when you think about Sky? [Garbled]

[Krista] Such a good question. I would say, for me, it's the journey of being with her. When I am flying her, and this is something that a lot of falconers will talk about, it's a very ethereal experience. To be out in the wild, with this animal that should not want to partnership with you, because they can survive on their own. They know they can. But they keep coming back home with you. Because they trust you and they feel that connection and that relationship. They don't feel love for you. It's all food based

[laughter]

[Krista] I often joke… People are like, "How do you get her back?" I'm like, "Same way I get my boyfriends to come back, I offer them food."

[Laughter]

[Krista] But you build this relationship with them. So, sensory details I would start to describe. Once she's on my arm, I feel her talons. I try to use… A lot of falconers, all people at first, they think I want the thickest glove possible to protect me from those talons. I like to use the thinnest glove possible, so I feel exactly what she's thinking and feeling. I can feel each talon unlock. I feel her put pressure on one foot versus the other. So I know, a moment before she's gonna to fly. I know seconds before she's going to tell me that she satisfied by ruffling her feathers. There's that very direct connection where she can also feel my muscles tensing or she knows my cue of, hey, we're ready to go. Right? So I'll shift my wrist, just so slightly, so she's leaning more forward and she knows, okay, now we're ready to move on. Then, when I'm touching her… So it's not necessarily recommended that you touch your falcon, but for medical purposes, right? I like her to be used to my touch. I reach under her wing and just feel slick back one word feeling how the feathers overlap each other, they're like dragon scales. Right? It's just a very beautiful thing of nature to look at her, the armor kind of on her feathers, on her wings, and how each one perfectly overlaps. Then, when she molts, seeing the new ones grow in. When she molts, it's actually a really beautiful thing because her feathers become more sunbleached as the year passes on. So then she gets these dark blue new feathers each year. It's just… I don't know how to describe it. It's a work of art.

[DongWon] It sounds incredible.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Having met Sky, I was just… She's… She is a lovely, lovely bird.

[Krista] She is. She's got a great personality. You can see in her eyes that she's thinking, she's processing, that she's really understanding. Even when she's not on my glove, if she's on Mary Robinette's glove, she looks at Mary Robinette, she understands, oh, this is still a safe place. She knows that she's comfortable here.

[Mary Robinette] Well, speaking of safe and comfortable places, let's pause for our break. I think you have a recommendation for us?

[Krista] Yes, I do. So, if you're looking into writing realistic animals, something that I… A book that I really loved was this one called Cher Ami and Major Whittlesey by author Kathleen Rooney. It's about a pigeon. I don't know how else to describe it. It's a true story, it's based on a true story, of a real pigeon in World War I. A lot of people when I tell them, look, guys, it's about a pigeon and the pigeon's handler, they're like, "Wait. Really?" But Kathleen Rooney wrote this book so well, and she wrote the pigeon character so well, that you can't help but fall in love with this pigeon and her story. It's just such a beautiful example of narration from an animal's point of view and her handler's point of view. Again, a lot of people are like, "Really? A pigeon? A street rat? Like, are you really plugging this book?" I promise you won't regret it. Everybody I've recommended it to falls in love with pigeons as well. Much to their chagrin.

[Mary Robinette] The title of that, again, was?

[Krista] Cher Ami and Major Whittlesey.

[Mary Robinette] Sounds amazing.

[Mary Robinette] So, now that we're back from the break…

[DongWon] I have a question I've been thinking about, which is, when we started this conversation, we talked about how you got into falconry from reading Jean Craighead George and then you mentioned T. H. White. One of my favorite books is H Is for Hawk…

[Krista] Yeah.

[DongWon] One of the things that so interesting about H Is for Hawk is it is in part an examination of T. H. White's book and a critique of it, in a lot of ways. So I'm kind of curious from your perspective, what are the things you see in fiction, whether that's books or movies or whatever it is, that you're like, "Ew, that's not right. That's not how this works," or it's frustrating to you in one way or another?

[Krista] Yeah. No, that's a great question. So I always tell when an author has really done a deep dive in trying to understand a bird of prey or a falconer's life. Something that I think a lot of authors want to skip over for their… When they're writing fiction is the husbandry aspects of taking care of the animal that their main character, protagonist, as in their possession. But what they're missing there is that it's the husbandry parts that really builds the relationship between the character and the animal. I mean, you think about your pet dog. Right? Your dog just doesn't decide it loves you one day and it's going to come home… Come back home with you every day. But it's when you're feeding it, it's when you're training it, it's when you're really taking it on walks and spending that mundane time with it. I wish that more fiction writers… Again, you don't have to spend chapters on the training, but that you touch on the husbandry aspects to make it more realistic and more authentic. That way, I think you're also doing more justice, not just to the character, but also to the animal as well.

[Mary Robinette] I… After we took the class in 2023, one of the things that I read was Fonda Lee's The Untethered Sky, which I keep telling…

[Krista] I just ordered it. It is at my house right now.

[Mary Robinette] That's very good. It's so good.

[Krista] It just arrived today.

[Mary Robinette] But one of the things I loved about it is so much of the front part of the book is the husbandry aspects. It is the bonding with the bird and just the daily aspect of, like, you have to clean a lot of bird poop.

[Krista] Yeah. Every day.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] Well, these kinds of things and making sure to include this kind of detail in your books has a real-world effect. Like, how many kids got owls after they read Harry Potter with no clue as to how much work it was going to be and no actual love of taking care of birds. Yeah. It's important to depict this kind of stuff.

[Krista] Oh, absolutely. In fact in the United Kingdom, there's no laws preventing just the purchase of an owl from the general public. There's no licensing process over there. So that was actually something that naturally occurred as Harry Potter grew in popularity is kids started asking for owls for Christmas. If you watch the movies, you'll see that Hedwig is kept in a relatively small cage.

[Yeah]

[Krista] People don't know what is actually appropriate for these owls. It's still a question I get today. Do owls carry messages? No!

[Laughter]

[Krista] You get a pigeon for messages.

[Yeah]

[Krista] But nobody actually wants a pigeon until they read Cher Ami and Major Whittlesey.

[Mary Robinette] Something else that you said as we were getting ready to record this about writing. We're so lucky because you also are a writer. So you understand the craft of it. But talking about writing animals and honoring the fact that they are animals…

[Krista] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] What… Like, if I wanted to honor the fact that I had a falcon in a story, what are some things… Like, I guess, like the things that you see that are anthropomorphic and the things that falcons do that are… Like body language that is very specific to them? Like, I remember you talking about something on Sky's face that fluffed when she was happy.

[Krista] Yes. Well, what you're referring to is, it's their chin beard. So they have these little feathers underneath their beaks and when they're happy, they start to fluff them out. If there really happy, their eyes turn almond shaped. This is actually something I didn't know until maybe two years ago. I've been a falconer for seven years.

[Mary Robinette] Wow.

[Krista] There's all these little secrets. Again, that… The general author writing about a falcon may not know, and you don't necessarily need to know, but as you deep dive more into these cultures of animals and animal characters, and you build relationships with people who are familiar with your animal characters, you can start to learn this. Right? That's doing honor to this animal and being realistic with it. I think if you're going to anthropomorphize the animal, if it's obviously fantasy, right, then that's one thing. But if you're trying to write something realistic, then honor the animal by making sure it is actually acting as an animal.

[Mary Robinette] What does Sky do when she's cranky?

[Krista] Oh, she lets you know.

[Laughter]

[Krista] She has those talons and she has that beak.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Krista] Usually she's not cranky as much as she's hungry. So…

[Mary Robinette] I get hangry. I mean, I get that.

[Krista] Right, hangry. Yes. So she'll just let me know that she's feeling quite hangry. Usually in the form of bobbing her head, looking around for her food, maybe start to open her wings as in I'm ready to fly right now. But she's never actually been aggressive. That's rare. I wouldn't say all falcons are this gentle. She just happens to be one that is very tame and mellow and every now and then, she'll remind me she's a wild animal.

[Dan] What are some aggressive behaviors you've seen in other birds of prey?

[Krista] In other birds… Yeah. So there's one thing called mantling that they'll do. It's actually a sign that they don't really trust the situation. Or they might not trust a certain person around them, or they might not trust a dog or even a falcon, occasionally. What it looks like is they will bring their wings out and cover their food. That's basically them saying, "This is my food. I caught it, and I think someone's going to try to steal it." They do it in the wild when they catch prey. Usually, it's because they want to hide their food from other soaring predators, other hawks or eagles. But a falconry bird doing that… It's quite unusual, because you want to see that it's trusting of the situation. It trusts its falconer to keep it safe.

[Mary Robinette] I had read about mantling and noted that when we went out with Sky.

[Krista] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] That she was… She wasn't doing that so much.

[Krista] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] There was one point when someone came up by the side of her and I saw her wing go up and I was like, "Oh, I've read about that."

[Krista] Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so true. That was the one time I noticed it as well. If you watched, you might have noticed me shift her so that she didn't feel uncomfortable with that person behind her. Because it's true, right? She's a bird of prey, she recognizes that, "Oh, somebody's behind me. I can't watch this person. So I'm going to cover my food." So the goal of the falconer there is just to reassure her. No, you're safe, you're fine. Let's move you so that you can see everybody in the group, and there's not one person behind you.

[DongWon] What's the thing that you wish the general public understood better about raptors in general? Like, what's the thing that, like, if you could make sure that everyone in the United States was aware of this fact? I mean, do you have a sense of what this might be?

[Krista] Wow. So many.

[DongWon] I know. That's okay.

[Laughter]

[Krista] Where do I start?

[Mary Robinette] We're only 15 minutes long, so…

[Krista] Okay. Right. Only 15 minutes long, so keep this fast. Fast as a falcon. So I would say just to understand that they're a core part of our ecosystem. The way that we as humans can impact that ecosystem… We became very clear that we were doing a lot of harm to them in the 1970s with DDT. We've done a lot better since. However, there are still people out there that are inadvertently and accidentally hurting these birds with rat poison, and with persecution in the American West. Some people shoot them because they think that, oh, they are trying to eat my chickens. Things like that. Right? There's ways to coexist with these animals peacefully in a way that doesn't harm you, your own land, and the birds themselves.

[DongWon] Yeah. Where I live in New York, the poison is such a huge issue with…

[Krista] I'm sure.

[DongWon] Especially getting into the fall, a lot of the larger raptors really struggle.

[Krista] Yeah. That's true, because as the temperature drops, there's less prey…

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Krista] So they're starting to get more desperate.

[DongWon] Yeah. It's really heartbreaking. Well, we have so enjoyed having you here on the podcast with us. Thank you for sharing all this incredible wealth of knowledge and first-hand experience. Is there anything you want to promote in terms of your own organization or social media? Where can people follow you and find out more?

[Krista] For sure. Again, being an English teacher, I love talking about writing and I love making connections with writers. So if anybody has any questions about writing realistic birds or perhaps if they want to get in contact with a falconer around them, I have lots of contacts all over the world and I'd be happy to share those. So my Instagram is Kristafeather, all one word. K. R. I. S. T. A. And then feather. Give me a follow, send me a message. I'd love to get in touch with you. If your local to Utah, I also do educational raptor experiences. So you can send me an email at feathers for thought, that is spelled the exact way it sounds, at gmail.com.

[Chuckles]

[Krista] Or, you can also, again, get in touch with me on social media on Instagram.

[Mary Robinette] I highly recommend following Krista because there are a lot of really beautiful photos of her with Sky and then just like randomly, oh, don't mind me, I'm just holding this Golden Eagle, that's like half the size of you.

[Laughter]

[Krista] Yes.

[Mary Robinette] He was so big.

[Krista] Oh, they're terrifying to. There's so majestic. Once you trust them not to hurt you, you feel really good. But in that moment, you're like, what are you going to do with me?

[DongWon] Absolutely terrifying.

[Dan] So what about your writing? Is that something people can go out and find and read?

[Krista] Yes. I published a few articles, mostly falconry related, as well as some personal memoirs. Short memoir, or falconry related articles. So there's a great magazine called Pursuit Falconry. It's published over in the UK and they kind of collect stories from falconers all over the world. I've published several there. There's also another magazine called Hawk Talk, published here in the United States. That one also publishes short stories and memoir and articles based on falconry. So if you're interested in, again, learning more about what this is and what it looks like, those two magazines would be a great one to give a shout out to.

[Mary Robinette] Those are always one of my favorite things, is reading a specialty magazine. I'm also going to say, for writers, that if you're thinking about writing falconry when you pick up one of these magazines, don't just read the articles. Actually read the advertisements as well.

[Krista, DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Because that's going to teach you so much about the things that go into the job and the lifestyle. Because it is a lifestyle.

[Krista] That's a great point.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Krista] Yeah. It is a lifestyle. It's an addiction.

[Mary Robinette] Actually, can you, before we go to homework, can you tell people what the care… What the care and feeding of Sky is like, because…

[Krista] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] You all talked about this, and it was just like, oh, that's not like having a dog.

[Laughter]

[Krista] Yeah. With a dog, you just pour out some food, it eats it, the end, goodbye. With feeding a raptor, it's quite intense. Some of the individuals that came out for a demo the other day got to see me taking apart her food. Again, their predators. So we like to give them the best possible food for them. I compare it to giving the best gas to a Ferrari. So she eats a high quality diet of quail and dove and pigeon. We try to mimic something that she'd be eating in the wild. So she will eat the whole prey, but she will not eat the whole prey in one sitting, so I, the falconer, have to cut up that prey to make it more manageable for her. So that's part of the feeding routine. The care routine. I'm always cleaning up after her. She leads a very spoiled life, I'm just her servant.

[Chuckles]

[Krista] She's really the master of the house. So, anyways, yeah, it takes, I would say, it's about an hour to two hours every day dedicated to her. If we're out flying and hunting, then it's quite a lot more. It can be upwards of five hours a day occasionally, if I'm doing a weekend trip. It'll be all weekend we're out hunting.

[DongWon] Amazing.

[Mary Robinette] Wow. Going out with you to watch her free fly was really a very special experience. Truly.

[Krista] I'm glad you guys enjoyed. Yeah. I love sharing my corner of the world with you all.

[Mary Robinette] Actually, I keep saying, and then we're going to do homework, but I do have one…

[Krista] Yes.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] I promise this is going to be my last question. On her non-flight days, does she have enrichment activities? Like what…

[Krista] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] What does a falcon do for fun?

[Krista] That's a good question. So she… I mean… Her enrichment is just kind of observing the world around her. Falcons aren't like parrots, where they need constant companionship. They're naturally solitary animals. So I bring her to work with me sometimes.

[Mary Robinette] Fun.

[Krista] Yeah. She has her own spa, she has her own perch, she hangs out, watches the students. Occasionally, I bring her over to my friend's house. She has a great outdoor space for her to enjoy and watch the world pass. So on non-flying days, she's really quite happy to take a break, I would say.

[Mary Robinette] That's fantastic.

[Mary Robinette] Well, speaking of a break, you don't get one, because you get some homework, which Krista has for you.

[Krista] Yes. So, we're going back to falconry and writing, of course. So my homework for you would be to really try to, if you want to write a falcon character, if you want to write about any animal character in general, try to find somebody who is intimately connected with that animal. Right? So, if we're going back to falconry, contact your local falconers club or association. A lot of times you can Google Tennessee Falconers Association or Tennessee Hawking Association. They hold… Most of these states will hold meats or club events every few months. If you're not able to get in contact with an actual falconer nearby, there's great memoirs out there. Helen McDonald's H is for Hawk is a great example, as is David Rowan's Onward which is actually just published last week. There's a lot of great falconry content and these writers give you a great glimpse into their life and into the relationship with their animals.

[Mary Robinette] Sounds amazing. Thank you so much for being with us.

[Krista] Thank you.

[Mary Robinette] For our listeners, you're out of excuses. Now go write.

mbarker

Writing Excuses 13.20: Fear and Writing, with Emma Newman

From https://writingexcuses.com/2018/05/20/13-20-fear-and-writing-with-emma-newman/

Key points: BIC (butt in chair) is not that easy! Between the desire to write and the ability to begin writing, we need to unpack the reasons why we procrastinate, and look at ways to handle them. Specifically, what are the fears that keep us from writing. Sometimes you may also find depression or other blocks, and need different tools for those. Watch out for unprocessed wounds from one's past, the fear of failure, and the fear of success. Be aware of what's happening. Try using one fear to combat another, e.g. fear of regret overcoming fear of success. Give yourself permission to be selfish, to carve out time for your work. Negotiate with your fears, trick them. Think about the advice you would give a friend who was suffering from your fears. Promise your inner toddler a reward when you finish!

( What else could go wrong? )

[Dan] This is Writing Excuses, Fear and Writing, with Emma Newman.

[Mary] 15 minutes long.

[Aliette] Because you're in a hurry.

[Howard] And we're terrified.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Mary] I'm Mary.

[Aliette] I'm Aliette.

[Howard] [squeak]

[laughter]

[Dan] With us, we have our special guest, who's terrifying Howard so much, Emma Newman. Emma, I'm excited that you're here. Tell us about yourself.

[Emma] Hello. I'm an author, an audiobook narrator, and a podcaster. And also a role player.

[Dan] Well, awesome.

[Mary] Yay!

[Dan] Okay…

[Emma] I think I paid for the latter one, though.

[Dan] We… Dear audience, who is not actually here with us while recording. We are currently on the Writing Excuses retreat. Let's get some love from the audience here.

[Whoo! Applause!]

[Dan] Okay. One of the things that we have heard nonstop… This is the last day of our weeklong thing. Emma's was the very first class at the retreat, and people have not stopped raving about it. So we want to talk about fear and writing. What do we want to talk about here?

[Emma] Well, the whole reason I created the talk that I did at the beginning of the week was just sheer rage at all of the people who I saw tweeting or blogging who were professional authors who were saying, "Well, all you need to do to be a professional author is to just sit down and write. Like, butt in chair, darling." I would just get so furious because it's not that easy for everybody. I don't actually believe it is easy for anyone, and that's just a very glib thing for them to say, to kind of emphasize the fact that there is an element of self-discipline. I understand that, but I feel that it kind of shut a lot of things out of the dialogue that we need to have about what nee… What work you need to do between the desire to write and the ability to actually begin writing. So the talk kind of unpacked all of the reasons why we procrastinate, and then what we can do when we've identified those underlying reasons, on a practical level and an emotional level, to enable us to be able to write as much as we want to.

[Dan] Awesome.

[Mary] I was really glad to hear you give that talk. I think that you were absolutely right to have it at the beginning of the week. One of the things that I want to highlight for you listeners is one of the things that can happen to you when you start to unpack the reasons that you are not writing is that you can discover that there's some other stuff going on. I went on this journey myself, and I've alluded to it on the podcast, that I for years was like, "Oh, I'm… I'm a procrastinator, and sometimes I get burnt out, or I'm in a funk." Then realized, after hearing other people talk about it, that actually what I was dealing with was depression, and that I needed different tools to deal with that, because it was getting in the way of me writing. The analogy that I often use is that it's much like having dysentery. That you're afraid to leave the house. It makes everything a mess. You're miserable. And no one wants to talk about it.

[Howard] And you're going to lose the game of Oregon Trail.

[Laughter]

[Mary] And you're going to lose the game of Oregon Trail. So that's one of the reasons that I was so excited to have you on, is because people talking about the various aspects of fear and depression is what got me to go to the doctor, at the age of 45. So hopefully, listeners, this… Don't be… Hopefully this will help you, and don't be surprised if you're listening to this and thinking, "Oh, no, this doesn't concern me." And then suddenly go, "Oh. Oh, this is me."

[Emma] One of the things that I wanted to achieve with the talk was opening a dialogue about mental illness as well. I suffer from generalized anxiety disorder, so I was kind of speaking from experience with writing despite pretty much constant anxiety. And to continue the metaphor, to extend the metaphor with dysentery, there is also the fear that it will happen again.

[Mary] Yes.

[Chuckles]

[Emma] And that, at least, if you have a really terrible stomach bug, there's always the worry that it'll happen again at the worst time. It is exactly the same with mental illness. When you're feeling better again, and if you can feel yourself returning to that state that where you were incapacitated the first time, one of the things that is oddly reassuring about going through a cyclic journey with your own mental illness is that when it happens again and again, you can say, "Actually, I did recover the last time, and this too shall pass." But the first time that that happens, you don't have that experience or that kind of knowledge. So there's the fear of being afraid, as well, that has to be unpacked in all of this process. That's important as well.

[Mary] I think that one of the things that you listeners should pay attention to is that a lot of the coping tools that we're going to be talking about, and a lot of this is something that you will have experienced or have already experienced… We label it as imposter syndrome. But it is completely… That imposter syndrome is basically anxiety about writing and depression about your skill level as a writer, all in a really ugly little bundle.

[Chuckles]

[Mary] Life is a terrible user interface.

[Aliette] I mean… Sorry.

[Dan] Nope. Please.

[Aliette] Part of what strikes me about that some of the corners of Twitter that you mentioned was always like people are mentioning like there's this narrative that you can conquer your fears and that you can… Like, this is like a battle, you're at war with like your fears, your depression, and then there's this kind of definite victory. I'm like, "This isn't how this works." Like, you're afraid, and you still write. This is how this works. Like, it's… Well, you know, you mentioned about cycles, it's like… It's always there lurking, somewhere. Then you have to… Either it's like very strong or very weak, but then you have to find tools to deal with that.

[Emma] Yes. Because it isn't a linear progression, and there are so many narratives that [garbled]

[Aliette] It's not a videogame.

[Emma] Exactly. It's not a videogame. There are so many narratives where you encounter that monster and then you can go and find the thing that will enable you to go in destroy the monster and then everyone lives happily ever after. But it's like doing that over and over and over and over and over again. Until you die.

[Laughter]

[Emma] I'm really sorry about that.

[Mary] Of dysentery.

[Aliette] Really like Oregon Trail.

[Dan] Fantastic. I have some very specific questions I want to ask, but this is a great time to break first for book of the week.

[Emma] Everyone's looking at me. So, the book of the week, that I feel slightly embarrassed about suggesting because it's my own, is After Atlas. That is a sci-fi crime. It's set 80 years in the future. It follows a detective, Carlos Moreno, who has been assigned to investigate the murder of a cult leader. The reason he's been assigned is because he escaped that cult when he was a child, but also because he isn't an average detective. He's an indentured slave to a corporation. So as he unravels the mystery behind the death of the cult leader, he is also processing a lot of issues.

[Mary] It is a fantastic book. I recently got a… Got my hands on a copy of it and basically was like, "Oh, great. Emma's got a new book. I'm just going to read the first chapter… I have to pee now because I've been sitting in this chair for days."

[Laughter]

[Mary] It's really good. Highly recommended. I also have to say that you do not have to have read the previous book, I think, to read this one. You can step into it cold. There's obviously some nuance that you get from having read the previous one, but absolutely… It stands on its own. It's fantastic.

[Emma] Thank you.

[Dan] Awesome. So it's After Atlas by Emma Newman. What was the first book called?

[Emma] The first book is Planetfall.

[Dan] Planetfall.

[Emma] So they're both set in the same universe, but they are genuinely standalone.

[Dan] Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you very much.

[Dan] All right. So I would love you to tell us some of these specific things, like you did in the talk. What are the reasons that we don't write?

[Emma] So, what I think of when I talk about the fear that underpins procrastination is that procrastination is kind of symptomatic of something that lies beneath. So it can take all sorts of forms, but it's the roots that are important. I see that there are kind of three primary roots, and then lots of little sub-ones. But the three primary ones are unprocessed wounds from one's past, the fear of failure, and the fear of success. Perfectionism is kind of like clinging onto the coattails of all of these. But those are the main kind of roots where it all comes from. If you start to kind of unpack all of those, then you can increase your own conscious awareness of what is actually happening, what is causing the procrastination behavior. Then I have kind of practical tools for, like once you figured out some of it, or even before you figured it out consciously, things you can actively due to be able to work despite the fear.

[Howard] One of the most difficult ones for folks often to wrap their head around is the fear of success. It's related to the paralysis of choice that happens when you're at a buffet and everything is delicious, but you do just have to pick one. If you succeed, suddenly you will have to make a decision about whether to pursue this as a career or perhaps whether to quit the day job. It opens a door and… You know, our caveman ancestors, when they opened the door and stepped outside… Well, there wasn't a door, but when they stepped outside…

[Chuckles]

[Howard] The first thing they had to do was make sure they weren't going to get eaten by something new. Success is scary. It's like… It opens a whole new world of things to be afraid of.

[Emma] It does. For me, the fear of success is very much having to leave the house.

[Laughter]

[Emma] I hate leaving the house. I'm on a cruise ship, I'm on a stage in front of people, so there's a bit of me now that is absolutely furious that I have done things that have brought me into this situation.

[Laughter]

[Emma] Even though I welcome this and I love it and I'm very happy to be here. I've had a fabulous week. It's that kind of weird, they live against each other and rub against each other, that you are actively working to invite these things in, that you also maybe don't want. This is not my natural state. My natural state is to be alone at home, writing, when no one can see me. I hate being seen. So that is where the fear of success plays out worse for me.

[Dan] Awesome. So you said you had some specific tools? What is one, for example, with fear of success, that you could give our listeners, of how to deal with that?

[Emma] So, for me, I think about whether I would be able to live with myself if I allowed the fear to win and didn't achieve the goals that I have. So it's kind of the well, you could… You can stay at home. Thank you, fear, for wanting to keep me safe and being at home. But am I genuinely going to be happy in that state? Or in my going to be there on my deathbed regretting everything? So I kind of use one kind of fear and repurpose it, and fire it at the other fear. So the fear of living with regret often outweighs the fear of having to go and do all of this. I also remind myself that a lot of things that I actively fear are all totally manufactured by my awful brain. So I actively remind myself intellectually that this is not real. It's like somebody said to me this week, "Oh, it's like Labyrinth, when she turns and says you have no power over me." That there is an element of that process going on. It's really hard, and sometimes I will be really grumpy with my husband for days because I have to leave the house at the end of the week and go and be in front of people. Then I go, "Oh. It's because I have to leave the house and go be in front of people…"

[Chuckles]

[Emma] "I'm really sorry."

[Dan] That is brilliant, using fears against each other. They deserve it.

[Howard] If you have one problem, you need to find a solution. If you have two problems, make them fight.

[Emma?] Yep. [Garbled] it's like [tried and tested for grabbing roles?] Well, not on me…

[Dan] All right. I want to try this, and maybe this'll be a disaster, but… Aliette, why don't you give us some of the reasons that you find to not write? And we'll see what Emma can do to help.

[Aliette] There's always something that needs to be done in the house, oddly enough. The lawn needs to be done, and I should prepare the meals for the kids, and then maybe I will sit down at my computer and I will like go… Maybe I can go on to Twitter because I need a break now…

[Laughter]

[Mary] Ah, Twitter.

[Emma] It always… It never ceases to amaze me how pressing those domestic chores become at the moment you're about to start writing.

[Laughter]

[Emma] I can ignore a pile of laundry for days, until the moment comes when I really have to sit down and finish that thing. I think there is also a dialogue we have to have with ourselves about giving ourselves permission to be selfish, and to not give all of our time to the domestic sphere and to our families and to all of the other people in our lives. To say, "No, it is okay to carve out this time, and to have this time just for my work." Yeah, mostly I'm driven to domestic chores when I am actively trying to run away from writing. It's not so much being driven towards them. It's actively sprinting away from the looming word count need behind me. But again, in those situations, I always say become aware of it. If you stop yourself… If you're in the middle of washing up and saying, "Well, why am I doing this at this time, when it is the designated time I was going to write?" Becoming aware that you're actually being a victim of the fear, and then saying, "No. I would actually like to negotiate now." And saying, "Okay. I am afraid of this. Is this something I genuinely need to be afraid of?" Can you negotiate with it? Sometimes, can you trick yourself? Because sometimes, I find myself being terrified that the next book I'm going to write is going to be a terrible failure. So I trick myself into saying, "Well, no, I'm not actually writing my next book. I'm just messing about with the first scene. That is not what I have to worry about." You kind of trick yourself. Trick your own fears.

[Mary] Sometimes… I have two tricks that I use when I am sitting down to write and then suddenly find myself in the kitchen doing the dishes. Which happens a lot. One of them is a phrase that my therapist gave me when I was going in first. She said, "What advice would you give to a friend who was going through this?" I was like, "Oh. That's a dirty trick."

[Laughter]

[Mary] Because I do, in fact, know the answer to these things. I just forget that I can apply that advice to myself. So, that's one thing. The other thing is that I will say, "Well, why don't you sit down and write about why you're not writing?" I'm like, "Okay, so what are the barriers that stand between me and the next scene that I need to write?" Eventually, what winds up happening is that I start noodling on the scene, and then suddenly the part of my brain that is delighted by writing is like, "Oh, wait. Waitwaitwait. Can I have the driver's seat now?" And away I go.

[Emma] If you can tailor it to whatever the fear is. But I do genuinely believe that a lot of it is either negotiating like adults or cajoling a toddler.

[Laughter]

[Emma] It's somewhere between the two, the kind of the inner toddler, like, "Well, I know you really don't want to do this now, but if you do this, then…" And then you can reward yourself. But the key is to try to constantly experiment and to be agile in your negotiations with your own fears.

[Howard] My… The place where I noticed fear the most in my own work is when I am moving from pencils to inks. I've laid down a bunch of pencil, and now I need to begin inking, which is the point at which I am committing to one of these many, many lines and deciding that the rest of them are wrong. We could brand that as a fear of commitment, if we wanted to tell a joke that's been told a million times. It's really the fear of being wrong. It's the fear of having made the wrong decision. The thing that broke me out of this was I found a good source of white gel pens. I tell myself, "You know what! I'm not actually committing. If this line is wrong, I'll just color over it with some white and make another line." Will Eisner did that, and he was using white paint and scraps of paper glued to his comic. I've seen those originals. The best people do this. I'm not actually committing. Then I will sit down and burn through white pens like they're candles.

[Chuckles]

[Emma] Well, that's the…

[Aliette] I actually have this file that's called like bits and pieces of the story. I will like put bits and pieces that I cut off, and also like the bits and pieces that I'm just noodling on. You know what, I'm not really writing, right? The funny thing is, with all the bits and pieces that I'm cutting off that never make it back into the story and all the noodling that actually does…

[Laughter]

[Aliette] It's just a crutch. I don't care. It gets me writing.

[Dan] I just finished a huge revision pass on one of my novels, and I did that. I kept… Because my editor says, "Cut this. It's unnecessary." But I love it. So instead of deleting it, I put it in a different folder. That kind of gives me permission to cut it out of the main work. I know I'm never going to go and use it. But now I have permission to cut it out of the work.

[Mary] I was just working on something that needed to be 45 seconds long. I got it down to 60 seconds. I'm like, "Oh, but I'm going to… I love these two lines that I have to cut to get it to 45." So I just turned in a 60 second version and a 45 second version. I'll let them make the choice about that. They chose the 45 second version. It's fine, like you don't miss the two lines. But I couldn't cut them myself. I had to let someone else do it. Which is often what it means by just putting it over in the folder.

[Dan] So, I'm sure, five authors up here, we could talk for hours about all the reasons we don't do stuff. But we need to be done with the episode. So, Emma, do you have some homework for us?

[Emma] Yes. So, aside from unpacking your own fears and trying very hard to overcome those, I would like to invite you to read a poem called The Listeners by Walter de la Mare. It was mentioned in a talk yesterday by Justin Ford, and it reminded me of how much I love it. I'd like to invite you to read it, and to write the back story that is implied in the poem.

[Dan] Nice. Okay. That is The Listeners by…

[Emma] Walter de la Mare.

[Dan] Awesome. So. That is excellent homework. This is Writing Excuses. You are out of excuses. Now go write.

mbarker.livejournal.com

The Thoroughly Unauthorized Summary of Writing Excuses Episode 3: Killing Your Darlings
From http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/02/24/writing-excuses-episode-4-killing-your-darlings/

In which we learn that sometimes little darlings need to get the hatchet because they just don't fit anymore, that keeping them on tap for the right time and place may make it easier to cut them out right now, and that someone else can see which ones need the axe better than we can. Oh, and Howard spits Diet Pepsi on the table when someone suggests that our first book really should be killed.
( Many details . . . )
Practice cutting your darlings. Write more, and don't worry about cutting this little darling, because you can always make more.

Only three episodes behind.

Current Mood: accomplished
Current Music: Pickin' Wildflowers, Keith Anderson

mbarker.livejournal.com

Episode Two of Writing Excuses: Blending the familiar and the original

From over at http://www.writingexcuses.com/

This was kind of hard to summarize - lots of great ideas and interplay. So this is rough notes, not a nice transcript or summary, but I think it gives an impression of the episode.

Key Points: First, some discussion about what is meant by combining an ordinary idea and an extraordinary idea to make something unique. Then some discussion of how this juxtaposition changes. Postponed discussion of writing the story you want to write for another time as a can of worms. Third was some talk about keeping up with trends and anticipating them.
( Lots of stuff . . . )
Parting thoughts that were excellent: Don't just stand on the shoulders of giants and look around at the view, look far out and take a leap! To improve a book explain the heck out of one unimportant thing, then don't explain some important thing at all. Make sure your original is really original -- if you have a strong familiar, you can probably take a few more steps with your originality.

Current Mood: chipper
Current Music: She's A Hottie, Tobbie Keith

mbarker.livejournal.com

Okay, I'm behind. But over at http://www.writingexcuses.com/ Brandon Sanderson, Howard Tayler, and Dan Wells are putting out a weekly series about writing called Writing Excuses. It's audio, not text, but I tried the first one today (it was put up Feb. 10) and it was pretty good!
( Summary of Episode 1 Brainstorming behind the curtain . . . )Well worth spending some time listening to (only 15 minutes). And despite the term podcast, Firefox was perfectly happy playing this in a popup for me. Of course, it took me a moment to realize that I needed to press the forward icon in the popup window, but that's just me.

And you can find out about Howard's Pepsi habit, too. Now there's a sticky image. :-)

Current Mood: refreshed
Current Music: Crazy, Patsy Cline

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mbarker - Writing Excuses 20.26: Gaming as a Writing Metaphor
mbarker - Writing Excuses 19.26: Bringing Falconry into Writing
mbarker - Writing Excuses 13.20: Fear and Writing, with Emma Newman
mbarker.livejournal.com - Writing Excuses Episode 3: Killing Your Darlings
mbarker.livejournal.com - Writing Excuses, Episode 2
mbarker.livejournal.com - 15 minutes worth of brainstorming?

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Writing Excuses Transcripts

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Writing Excuses 20.26: Gaming as a Writing Metaphor

Writing Excuses 19.26: Bringing Falconry into Writing

Writing Excuses 13.20: Fear and Writing, with Emma Newman

Writing Excuses Episode 3: Killing Your Darlings

Writing Excuses, Episode 2

15 minutes worth of brainstorming?

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August 2025

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