Writing Excuses Transcripts

Writing Excuses 21.07: Deep Dive -- "With Her Serpent Locks" 

From https://writingexcuses.com/21-07-deep-dive-with-her-serpent-locks

Key Points: Birthdays are Leveling Up days! This story has teeth. Subtly diabolical. Use mythology to ground the story. Mix in science fiction technology. Barriers to writing? Angry snakes. When you have a big emotion, lean into it. Give it to a character and then help them pivot away from it. Intentions. Delaying information. Internalizing. What the hell?

[Season 21, Episode 07]

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[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.

[Season 21, Episode 07]

[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Deep dive -- "With Her Serpent Locks"

[Marshall] Tools, not rules.

[Erin] For writers, by writers.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Marshall] I'm Marshall.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Mary Robinette] And we are very happy that Marshall has joined us. He's usually on the other side of the microphone, being our engineer. But... Today is my birthday.

[Chuckles. Happy birthday. Yay.]

[Mary Robinette] So I often think about this as leveling up day. I'm now at 5th... Level 57 human.

[I love that]

[Mary Robinette] It makes me feel powerful...

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] In a way that I'm 57 years old does not. Because then I can think about the new gear that I get and the tools that I get. And for my birthday, one of the things that I often do is I do what I call a party favor. Which is that I host one of my stories, but then I also talk about some aspect of it. Sometimes I show you a first draft. And in this case, we're going to talk about the story through the things we've been talking about with beginnings, some of the things we're going to be talking about with beginnings, and I'm also going to talk about some ways in which this story shows me leveling up. So, this is on Uncanny. It's called With Her Serpent Locks. My friends have read this story. And before I tell you where it came from, I would love to just see what your first initial thoughts of it were.

[DongWon] I really loved it. It's really fun, even though it comes from a place of like... There's definitely, like, teeth to this story. Right? Like, these things have a bite. And I really enjoyed seeing that unfold. But it's... I like the way in which the emotions of it is kind of sublimated, like, there's irritation, but it's all filtered through this very, like, I'm going about my day, I'm keeping my cool, I'm just like doing the things that comfort me, and it sort of has all these sensory grounding things so you can feel the simmering rage underneath it that's going to end up where it ends up. So, yeah, I really liked that emotional tenor and it made it a very, like, pleasant story to read. Even though it is coming from a place of like... Fuck this.

[Chuckles]

[Marshall] I agree. When I got... Especially when I get to the end, it just felt like subtly diabolical. Like, by the... Like, she's just going about, like DongWon said, going about the day, but, like... There was some planning going on and there was some anger. And then the execution at the end was just... It was very satisfying by the time we got to the end.

[Erin] Yeah. I really was thinking about it in the context of, like, some of what we've been talking about recently of, like, beginnings and openings, so I really... The end is great. But, like, I was thinking about, like, how it works. And one thing I found interesting is, it's based in mythology. Mythology that I'm aware of. Which is something we didn't talk about, which is something you can ground a story in a broader context and, like, even the context that like... Which is not 100% required, but this is a fairly well-known myth, like, the Medusa turning people into stone. And so it was really cool to kind of uncover what was happening on both the personal level for the character who I was not familiar with, but, like where it fits into my broader understanding of the myth, which is a fun way to ground, and also makes me feel clever, which we talked about in previous episodes. Which is the... I'm like, oh, this is that, and it's a little more explicit right after that. So I'm like, I figured it out...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Before it was told to me, which is something really fun that I enjoyed.

[DongWon] Yeah. And even in the way where I was like, oh, wait, I don't really remember this part of the myth. Like, I remember Medusa was, like, one of the Gorgons, but I don't remember who the rest of them were, or what the setup was, or even exactly how she died. I remember the Harry Hausen...

[Mary Robinette] Right. Yeah.

[DongWon] Version of it. But it didn't feel necessary. Right? I got the pieces I needed to get. I remember the vibe of the thing more. And so I think that's the thing where, like, you don't have to worry too much about referentiality, so long as you're not, like, expecting me to remember every subtle detail of a thing. But like, okay, I know what the Medusa is, I know what a Gorgon is.

[Marshall] Yeah. The title, and then getting to that first break, the stone back of a man held on the ground, it's like, oh. I see...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Marshall] What's happening here.

[Chuckles]

[Marshall] I was like, okay, that's sick. I like that. But we were talking about grounding the reader a bit, but what I thought was kind of a clue is grounding these gods with this kind of technology, too. Like, how does a god get from... How does a god trying to escape from her family, and then how are they communicating across time and space, and do they have to take a ship over... Like, I just thought that was a really cool touch, like, the wormhole, the relay station. I just thought that was a cool, like, way to kind of like ground gods into... Inside the story.

[DongWon] Yeah. And then, why make it science fiction? Like, what was behind that choice?

[Mary Robinette] Okay. So [garbled] yes. Now we talk [garbled] about evolution of the story. So, I run this thing called a short story cohort, and one of the things we do at the beginning of the cohort is I check in with people on, like, barriers to writing, victories. And one of the people, as a barrier to writing, said she had a lot of stuff going on with her family, and she just felt like her brain was full of angry snakes. And one of the things that I always say is when you're having a big emotion, try to lean into it. Whether it's giving the character that emotion and then helping them pivot away from it, or lean even farther into it. And so that day, for the writing project, I said our writing prompt is angry snakes. And so what I wrote down... I saved this. What I wrote down was angry snakes. And then the next thing I told them to do was to set some intentions. That they should set a couple of things that if they accomplished those, they would feel satisfied by the end of the day. And the lowest bar is possible. So the things I set were start a new story, decide where, who, and what the problem was. That was it. And so I was like decide where? I'm like, backyard on a planet with rings. That was like the sum total of what I wrote down. Who? Medusa's sister. Problem? Zeus wants to visit. Like, that was what I wrote. And then... This is one of those stories where I got lucky. I talk about this, sometimes, when you get lucky and you kind of cough a story out. I got most of this story during that 2-hour block of writing. Not all of it. There were pieces that I was like, oh, have to fix that. But the opening line of the story was not originally the message from Zeus. It was originally the message hung in the air. It was the second line, was where I started.

[Marshall] Okay.

[Mary Robinette] And my very first take was it was actually going to be Medusa. And then I went over and I was like, can we just check on Medusa? Like, what are some things? I remember, again, she has some...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Sisters. She's dead. So who else is around? And that was when I learned that the Gorgons, some of them were immortal and some were not. And also, I was like, there's gotta be a star named after... Like, all of the other things. And indeed, there is... Like, I didn't make up the name of that... I made up the idea that there's a planet that's habitable there. But I'm like, okay, so you've got immortal gods. That means if we go into science fiction, they should still be around. Theoretically. Unless someone has killed them. And that was kind of where I started. But I didn't know the ending when I started. I knew that I wanted a confrontation between the two of them. I knew that she was dealing with grief. I knew that she hated this asshole. Because, I mean, really, Zeus is, like, rotten. And the other thing that I knew as I was going was that I wanted to play with form. Because I tend to do this fairly immersive kind of... I don't tend to be flashy. And so the idea of doing this thing where Euryale is just doing the why, the where, the question words as my transitions was really appealing to me. And trying to do these very condensed scenes that were doing a lot of lift. But actually, not a lot happens in. Also, very appealing to me that it's this correspondence between the two of them. But at the end... By the time I got to the end, that final scene, I knew what was going to happen to Zeus. I knew that she had taken steps. But I had to go back and plant the... I don't know, basil [garbled layer] whatever it is, at the... I had to go back and plant some of that stuff so that it was there. I think she was originally cutting a lemon instead of a pomegranate. I'm like, it's a Greek myth, what are you doing?

[laughter]

[DongWon] Well, and cutting a pomegranate is such a good sensory detail.

[yeah]

[DongWon] It's such an involved task, it takes these different steps, and there's all this technique involved. I don't know. And it's just this beautiful red luscious image.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. One of the other things that I was trying to do to level up is something that I will talk to you about after the break. Because it's about delaying information.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] So, before the break, I said that one of the leveling up things that I played with was delaying information. And one of the pieces of information that I was very deliberately delaying was the word Zeus. And also that, yes, this really is a Gorgon and all of the commentary about her hair is not metaphor, it's like I'm... I've got Greek myth mashed with... But that's actually a pretty hard thing to do. It's not something that I would have been able to do when I was a beginning writer. And it's one of the things that I felt like I had more control over. So I wanted... So I am curious about how that played for you, and what you see as the tricks I was using to be able to do that? Or anything else you want to talk about.

[laughter]

[Marshall] Well, you mentioned the hair not being a metaphor. Or not being... You know what I mean? It was something that was actually happening. And I think I started to kind of figure that out when she sat down and one of them was like...

[Mary Robinette] Bit the chair behind her?

[Marshall] Yeah. That was it. Bit the chair behind her, and she just was kind of doing something with it. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. These are actually, like, responding as she's feeling things. And I was like, okay, that's really cool. And then that, when... I was trying to remember the other spot. Oh. She just didn't want any more statues haunting her house. That line. I love that line. Because now I'm imagining all of these people coming there and her just being like, okay, now you're stone.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Marshall] Sorry, bro. And I just thought that was cool. So that connection of the hair and that image, and then Zeus shows up... I just thought that was really well done.

[DongWon] I love the pattern also you set up of the who what when where why. You know what I mean? Just the single word questions which you, like, hang a lantern on, because she's like I'm being deliberately annoying by just saying one word. But then it leads to the who. Right? And so I think it's just like fun to set up a pattern that is going to resolve, in that way. And resolve in the other thing of, like... I was like it's probably Zeus. You know what I mean? I, like, had a sense of, like... But there's plenty of gods in the Greek pantheon that are complete assholes. But there was something about it that I was like, I wonder if it's going to be Zeus? And then it was, which was very satisfying.

[Erin] I think one thing I found very interesting was at the end of the first paragraph after the spoken line, or the hanging in the air message, was about the asshole favorite grandson who got away with rape and murder and incest. Which is interesting, because her reaction to that is very blase, which to me speaks like something is going on beyond what you're expecting. Because like... It's not like she's like, and I will alert the authorities to this, or like... It's just sort of like, oh, this is like a known thing. It's happened. This again. Which is something that is very... I was like, well, what's going on with that guy? Like, that seems messed up. Like...

[Marshall] Why isn't anyone doing anything about this?

[Erin] Yeah. Like, why is nobody doing [garbled] feels like somebody should be handling this...

[Marshall] Tell somebody.

[DongWon] It's... I mean, weirdly, it's very outsized. Right? Because like... I don't think any of us know someone who's that terrible.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[DongWon] But I do think a lot of us have someone in our family that's a little bit like, ugh, like that person [garbled] like... You don't... It's also like... I'm not clear on how bad of a person they are, but maybe they're not, like, perfect.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] You know what I mean? Or just, like, maybe it's just like a little bit. But that exasperation and discomfort with somebody you're connected to in your circle that you can't quite get away from is, I think, a really, really relatable feeling. Right? And so I think setting that up as, like, the grounding emotion is really helpful there.

[Mary Robinette] Awesome. I'm going to point back to a thing that you said when you were talking about setting up the pattern, the who, where, what. That I had to switch... I remember having to switch something, one of the wheres of one of them in order to get the beats to hit right. But the... At the very, very end, I also deliberately, the where, where would you like to be, I also deliberately gave her more words when she was talking to her sister's head.

[Chuckles] [yes]

[Mary Robinette] I also, in terms of... And this is what we... We'll be talking about endings much later in the season. But the last line was originally, considered the best spot for a hero. And then I was like, that's not her relationship with her.

[DongWon] Yeah. Beloved sister feels so much more the core emotion of the story. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Such a tenderness to her, too. And I think you do a good job of showing that early, both in terms of we think of that as somebody doing these nurturing tasks, preparing food, gardening, but also just like her relationship with her like awful little cilia covered...

[Marshall] Yeah.

[DongWon] Pet. It's like so adorable, but also, when I think about it...

[Chuckles]

[DongWon] I'm like I don't want a million leg making biscuits on me. It felt so bad to think about. But also you made it very sweet and very cute and very tender. Right? Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I love Butterscotch.

[Marshall] Yeah. I agree. That was a... That was an insanely good character moment, too. And, like, although it was a little off-putting, like... She loves this awful little creature...

[Chuckles]

[Marshall] And I love that last line of that section. They liked frolicking in the moss. And I'm like thinking of this thing with all these legs, like, doing something...

[laughter]

[Marshall] Okay, he likes that. That sounds awful, but... Okay...

[DongWon] Listeners, I'm sorry you missed the pantomime.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I'm like, is that a thousand little legs, or is that a marionette moment?

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I'm not sure what's happening over there. Cool.

[Erin] I have a question for you.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Erin] I know we don't have endless amounts of time, but you talked about feeling like you were leveling up, and I'm curious, like, what that felt like to you, and, like, how did you feel that? Like, what specifically did you feel that you were able to do that you weren't before?

[Mary Robinette] So I know that... Like, I've had control over delay of information for a while, but this kind of slow reveal in such a compressed space? That felt like something that... Like, I know I couldn't... I know I couldn't have done that when I started writing. And so I'm not even sure that I would have been... Like, 5 years ago, doing that. I'm not certain. But I felt like this... The feeling that I had really was, oh, I know how to do this. And one of the things that I... It wasn't actually that I know how to do this. Oh, I've internalized this. That was the thing. When I've done this before, it has been a very, very conscious thing. Like, I've had to think about it and I've had to tweak and adjust it. And this time it was, I've internalized how to handle it. And that's, I think, part of why I described this story as like I just coughed and the story happened. That I was chasing the feelings and the emotions that I had in that moment. It's very short. For people who have not read it, it's only 1,700 words. So it was something that I could write... Mostly write in one sitting. Which meant that I was kind of in the same headspace for the entire time. So it really did feel like that thing I always talk about with puppetry, where, like, I've internalized it, the figure's just moving. And often, when I was performing, I would remember the show from the point of view of the character. Even though that's not... Like, my body is not in that memory, even though I know that I was there. But I had internalized what I was supposed to be doing so much that I was just acting within the moment. And that was very much that feeling with this. It's like I've internalized this, I'm just acting, I'm just feeling the moment. Which was a really good feeling.

[DongWon] There's a real ease to this story that comes through. Right?

[Erin] Yeah.

[DongWon] It doesn't feel effortful or forced in any way. Not that your fiction normally does, but, like, there's a breeziness to it that I think makes it so appealing and easy to read.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. It was... Like, I think that that can happen with my other stuff, but often it's something that I had to really work for. And, like, polish off the rough edges.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And this time it was like, no, I know exactly what I'm doing with this one. Which was a nice feeling.

[Erin] Awesome.

[Marshall] And I know we're not talking about revision right now, but, like, that's something good, I think, for, like, in my writing community, where a lot of new writers or aspiring writers or whatever you want to call it are trying to figure out, is this ready? You know what I mean? And so I guess I like hearing the fact that you were able to do this, but this isn't something that happens all the time. But it's also something that will happen, the more you do it.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Marshall. I don't know if there's a question there, but like... Do you see what I'm saying?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. No, I think it absolutely is a thing to know. And that... Because you're right. It is so frustrating when you are working for it, and I see that also with a lot of people who've taken a writing Workshop. That they come out of it, and everything is so conscious that writing feels incredibly hard, because you're trying to do everything, trying to use all of these new tools.

[DongWon] Right. 

[Mary Robinette] And so knowing that, oh, yeah, once you do that work, there is this payoff on the other end.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] It just may take... May take years before you get there.

[DongWon] It's all practice.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Like I started... I sold my first book, I think, in 2005. I think that's right.

[DongWon] [garbled] a couple years ago.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm about 20 years into doing this as a career... Up to... Whoof.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] I have not actually said that out loud before.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] One of the other things that I was going to say is that when I was writing this, we also took a couple of breaks. So, even though it's a 2-hour span that I wrote this in, I know that I took a couple of breaks during that, in which I walked around. And the break's only 2 minutes long. Which is long enough to go get a cup of water, long enough for things to kind of kick over in my head, and then come back. So, like, one of the things that I've got in here is, in the original, is a prompt that I used when we came back, which is, after, she took a face mask out of another drawer and hooked it around her ears. And I've got... I preserved the prompt which was, what the hell? And originally, like in my... And again, like, this is a 2-hour span, I know that I was planning on... Like, I was thinking about how many iterations, how much back and forth... And then I was like, what the hell? Have him just show up.

[Chuckles]

[Marshall] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Like, he just shows up.

[Erin] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] And it's just like, what the hell.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Like, forget all of this. And that was also one of those things that, again, the internalization ... Internalizing of, oh, sometimes you can actually just make a decision to stop a try-fail cycle and just move to the next beat.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Like, you don't have to, like, build... Sometimes you can just be like what the hell...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] This is happening there? And just move.

[DongWon] Yeah. I love that.

[Mary Robinette] Okay. Any other questions before I give them their homework?

[Mary Robinette] Well, first of all, thank you all so much for coming to celebrate my birthday.

[Erin] Happy birthday again. Thank you for sharing it with us. Yeah. I love getting presents on somebody else's birthday.

[Mary Robinette] So, for your homework. This story started with a description of emotion. Angry snakes. I want you to take a strong emotion that you've experienced recently, and describe it as a metaphor. Then, I want you to use that metaphor as your writing prompt.

[Marshall] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.