Writing Excuses 15.46: Crafting Chinese-American Characters

Nov. 18th, 2020 10:32 am
mbarker: (ISeeYou2)
[personal profile] mbarker
Writing Excuses 15.46: Crafting Chinese-American Characters
 
 
Key points: Are there representations of Chinese-American characters in media? Literature, TV, and movies do have representative characters, but it's not as deep as it could be. Mostly focusing on how do you merge the two heritages, and recent immigrants or second-generation learning about early trials. Good characters are aware of stereotypes, and control them. They are aware of language. And then there's food! Tastes, emotions, a metaphor for making connections with heritage? Comfort! Make the influences from the past little nods, spice for the character. How can you write about a culture that you didn't grow up in? Admit that this is just your viewpoint. Focus on one character, one place, don't claim that it represents everyone, just that one character's life.
 
[Transcriptionist note: (1) I may have confused Piper and Tempest. Apologies for mislabeling. (2) I may have confused emigrant and immigrant.]
 
[Mary Robinette] Season 15, Episode 46.
[Piper] This is Writing Excuses, Crafting Chinese-American Characters.
[Dan] 15 minutes long.
[Yang] Because your time is valuable.
[Laughter]
[No. No. Laughter]
[Dan] And we're not that smart.
[That just finishes… Garbled]
[No]
[Yang] See, I was a Chinese-American… [Garbled]
[Piper] Getting back to… I'm Piper.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Yang] I'm Yang Yang.
[Tempest] I'm Tempest.
 
[Piper] This is already off the rails. So… I get to be Howard this time. This is the best. All right, so. Welcome to the next episode… Our continuing episode about Writing the Other. We are here with Yang Yang Wang.
[Yang] Hello.
[Piper] You're so awesome. You do so many things. But, yes, when I said I want to do these episodes and we're going to do them in Seattle, Nisi Shawl, who is the godmother, the mystical goddess of Writing the Other, was, like, "You should talk to Yang Yang." So I think…
[Yang] Oh, thank you. Whoever she is.
[Laughter]
[Piper] Thank you. Thank you so much, Nisi. Yes. So tell us a little bit about yourself, as an author, is a Chinese-American, as whatever.
[Yang] So, currently, I am an author and actor. I mostly specialize in commercials. I've done everything… Every brand in the Seattle area, from like Amazon to Microsoft to Washington State Lottery. I think it's cool that I found some success in that. I feel like it's a combination of good timing and my own personal brand. I don't know if… For those who have met me, I have a very good, what they call a developer look. Believe it or not, that is very hot in Seattle.
[Chuckles, laughter]
[Yang] [garbled]… A lot of tech companies.
[Piper] In my day job, I actually work with a software development company, and I agree, you have a great developer look.
[Laughter]
[Yang] Oh, thank you. Yeah, so besides that, I've been dipping my feet into more on the production side. I wrote and directed a short film last year which took a best short film award at the Oregon independent film festival.
[Dan] Cool.
[Yang] I recently just opened a short film at the Wing Luke Museum, who's doing an exhibition on Asian Americans in science fiction. You should definitely check that out. Like, it is an amazing exhibit.
 
[Piper] Awesome. How cool. Yay. It's not often we get someone with acting and writing experience. So, I guess the first thing I want to ask is about when you're thinking about the kind of Chinese-American characters that you do see in media, whether that's like film media or even books, first of all, do you see many? And, the ones that you see, are they the kind of characters that you would say, "Yes, I enjoy that depiction. That seems amazing. I would want every person to want to look at that, forever and ever, amen."
[Yang] So, first of all, I would like to start off by saying that my opinions do not represent everyone else's opinions.
[Dan] Certainly.
[Piper] Absolutely.
[Yang] Just my own. I think, growing up, I did see Chinese-American characters in literature and on television or in movies. I would say that I did recognize them. I wouldn't say that I felt, like, misrepresented. But at the same time, I felt like it just… It waded in the shallow end of the pool, if you will. I felt like there was more that could be depicted. A lot of the narratives that I was seeing was centered around like people struggling with merging their Chinese heritage and their American heritage. It would be a story about recent immigrants or like second-generation learning about their parents' trials coming to this country. Being… So, my own story is that I came over here when I was nine years old. I felt, like, while I recognized some of the trials that those characters faced, like, I was not picked on in school anymore than anybody else. My name was not made fun of. You know, when your name's Yang Yang Wang, there's a lot of wordplay.
[Chuckles]
[garbled… Yeah, yeah… Places…]
[Yang] I picked out one of the ones I wanted to highlight is somebody called me… You know, Yankee Doodle Dandy, but they called me Yankee Doodle Wanger.
[Dan] Nice.
[Yang] But, yeah. Kids… But I'd like to, again, stress that kids being who they are, I was picked on no more or less than like any other kid at my school. So, while I recognize facets of this, I didn't think that that was the complete story. So, like for me, some of the things that I think good Chinese-American characters are highly aware of are (a) their relationship to stereotypes, like, you grow up hearing these stereotypes and you decide and you have control over how you relate to them or not relate to them, how you let them affect you or not affect you, whether you want to embrace and make it your own. Because there's that… Let's take the example of, like, martial artists. While there's that stereotype, all Chinese kids know martial arts. But some Chinese kids love martial arts. By performing martial arts, it's not that they're perpetuating the stereotype, but they are definitely aware that that stereotype exists, but they are taking control over it, and not letting it affect their love of this thing.
[Right]
[Yang] Another thing being awareness of their relationship to language. I think whether or not you speak the language that your family, your ancestors, etc., like, did, you are aware of your level of relationship to that language. Like, what do you know, like, just a couple of words? Like whether you know a phrase. Whether you can just order a couple of food dishes at a restaurant. Maybe that's enough. But for other people, like, it's not, and it's a source of like common guilt from their family, etc. But I find that language… It is definitely something that a lot of Chinese-Americans, including myself, like, are hyperaware of.
[Uhum]
 
[Yang] The last one, I mentioned it before, was food. Like…
[Laughter]
[It always comes back to food]
[Yang] Yeah, absolutely.
[So many things about my life are food.]
[I'm there for you]
[Yang] Yeah. I find that, for me, like, food is something… I consider it like a safe space, like, where people can sort of like experiment with traditional…
[Yeah]
[Yang] And like mixing different influences, like, safely. But something about, like, food that really resonates with me is growing up, even without, like, knowing what it's called, I will have experience, something… I'll have eaten something and remember the taste and certain, like, emotions around it. I might have even, like, forgotten about this, but like years later, either going to a restaurant somewhere in America or somewhere back in China, I will essentially, like, rediscover this food and maybe this whole… Maybe the whole time in the back of my mind, like, this flavor will be, like, lingering and I'll seek it, like some sort of extended metaphor for, like… I guess you could take it as an extended metaphor for, like, seeking a connection with, like, my heritage. But you don't have to. It could be for some people, it could definitely be that. But for me, it's just like seeking, like, a comfort and an emotional connection.
[Piper] oh, I think that's really relatable. Because, for example, I'm Thai-American. I was actually born here, but I spent many, many summers of my childhood in Thailand. We just went to Thailand over the past New Year, and I took my partner, Matthew, with me. It was his first time in Thailand. So, it was one of those things where as soon as we got there, I hit the streets for the vendors, looking for my favorite things that I just can't get here or I can't find here. Or if I do find it here, it's not the same flavor. I was looking for that flavor. So I think that that idea of comfort foods or that feeling... Another friend of mine, Phillipa Ballantine, who's an author in steam punk and also epic fantasy, she was just recently back in New Zealand, and she pinged me just as I was getting back from Thailand. She was in New Zealand eating foods that she hadn't had for quite some time. She had grown up in New Zealand. She's like, "There's something about eating this food that brings you home." It's really, really all about sensory, not just what you remember, but what you're smelling and you're tasting and you're feeling, the emotions associated with it. So, yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
[I feel like there's… Garbled]
[Tempest] there's not enough, I feel like, about that in depictions where it's like… Not like own voices writing, it's writing the other. About just, like, all the foods that make us feel like who we are. Because, like, food is so important to just literally everyone.
[Laughter]
[Piper] Oh, yes. I try to incorporate that a lot in my series. In fact, it got to the point where some people thought that I was… That they would be able to re-create a Chinese dish based on my Chinese-American heroine's looking that she was doing through the course of a scene that I was describing, because she stress cooks.
[Laughter]
[Piper] The only way they can get any information out of her, she's like, "Look, you want me to answer your questions? Stand there. Let me cook, and I will answer your questions clearly. If you make me try to sit down, it's not happening." But, yeah, I mean, all of my series… I have a Korean American character who does the same thing. She has comfort foods, because she ended up in the hospital. Got shot at. Or actually exploded. But anyway…
[Laughter]
[Piper] Either way… It's romantic suspense, man. But either way, it comes back to what you're saying about the food and wanted to see that and see how food brings you back… And not necessarily back, but deepens insight into who you are.
[Yeah]
[Yang] Yeah, I guess it all comes back to the fact that, like, it's like these little nods. To your… To the influences from your past. Like, it doesn't need to dominate a character. It just needs to be… It's like the spice, to go with the whole food metaphor, right?
[Yeah]
[Yang] It's like the spice to a character. But it doesn't need to be like something… The only thing that a character obsessed is about or thinks over.
 
[Piper] All right. I'm going to stop us here, because I've been politely reminded that I totally forgot…
[Oh. Garbled]
[Piper] To watch the time, and it is time for the book of the week.
[Laughter]
[Piper] That is you. Would you please tell us what the book of the week is?
[Yang] I was just reading All Systems Red by Martha Wells. I think it is probably one of the… It's got one of the best characters, Murderbot, that I've ever encountered.
[Chuckles]
[Yang] I'm super jealous, I wish I'd thought of this character first.
[Chuckles]
[Yang] I wish I could, like, steel list character and like put it in like all the settings, all the time periods that can possibly exist. Yeah, I know I'm a little late in reading this reticular one…
[It is never too late.]
[Yang] Yeah. I can't… I say that it does not diminish my enjoyment of it anyway.
[Piper] Awesome.
[Dan] That is All Systems Red by Martha Wells.
[Piper] Awesome. Thank you.
 
[Tempest] So, one of the things that I know that some people who are either from a diaspora culture or they're from… They're like [garbled] emigrants, they were brought to whatever cultures their family emigrated to when they were very young, so, like, most of their experience is in, like, the new culture, is they worry about whether or not their writing about the home culture would be considered writing the other, because it's, like, it's sort of my culture, but it's not exactly my culture, because my culture is this, the culture that I mostly grew up in, and whatever. I know that there are, like, two aspects of it, there is the aspect of, like, from the inside, the person whose, like, having that thought about themselves, but then there's also, like, the voices from the outside are like, "That's not authentic."
[Chuckles]
[Tempest] Oh, Lord, we could have a conversation about authenticity all day long, and we won't.
[Chuckles]
[Tempest] But I'm actually, like, more concerned with, like, how… What would you say to authors who, like, they're from a… They're Chinese-American or they're Indian-American or whatever. They want to write about China. They want to write about India. What are the kinds of things that they can do to feel less... or to just be aware of the complicated issues around that?
[Yang] Right. I guess, one of the first things that they can do is just acknowledge the fact that they are representing it from their own viewpoint. Like, they are not trying to assume any sort of authority over the subject matter. I mean, to be fair, even citizens from like a country, such as China, can't necessarily write about China with all the nuance and all the complexity to do it justice for various reasons. Right? But I think after going past that, it's a matter of… So, whenever I read about a character, I always think about the author. Like, I look at the back of the book and I read the little, like, blurb about who they are and where they come from, and, like, I try to think about their relationship to the subject matter. I think that as long as they have, like, the proper research and they have access they don't try to tell me that this is how the country is. As long as I can see that there's, like, room that they think the country is this way.
[Their perception is theirs]
[Yang] Their perception… Yeah. As long as there's enough of that fallibility, like… I think I'm okay with that. Because that's the best that we can do, really. Like, we are all trying to have, like, some good intent and we want to explore and we want… It's really like celebrate. Like, part of the reason why, I think, that people want to write in these other settings is that there's something about setting that enraptures them. They want other people to love it, and they think it's exciting, and they want other people to feel the same excitement. So, as long as they… Yeah, as long as… Sorry, I lost my train of thought.
[Laughter]
[That's okay]
[Dan] No, I wanted to add onto that, because I think that's great. That's one of the reasons, one of the things we talk about a lot in this series is that the more specific you get, when you're talking about one character, then you have room for that fallibility. Because I'm not trying to say all Chinese Americans are exactly like this. But this one is. Then that gives us room. It doesn't feel like were trying to represent an entire massive nation or culture, we're just trying to show you one person's life.
[Tempest] Yeah.
[Piper] Yep. That's the most important thing. Cool. Well. Thank you so much.
 
[Piper] In wrapping up, I have today's homework. This is super exciting. I love giving homework.
[Woohoo!]
[Piper] Excuse me. So, for your homework, I want you to take a culture. It can either be a real-world culture or a culture that you have made up for your books. Then, I want you to create a character that is a descendent of emigrants from that culture. Then that character comes back to the home culture. How are they experiencing the home culture? What are they seeing? Are they saying, "Oh, that's so familiar?" What are they seeing? Are they like, "I didn't know they did it like that. Grandpa didn't do it like that?" Write that scene. Just explore what it can be like to be the person who is, like, of a culture, but not of a culture inside.
[Dan] Awesome. Thank you, very much, Yang Yang, being on the episode. This was great.
[Yang] Well, thank y'all for having me.
[Piper] Thank you. All right. Listeners! You're out of excuses. Now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 13.50: What Writers Get Wrong, with Zoraida Córdova

Dec. 21st, 2018 10:37 am
mbarker: (Fireworks Delight)
[personal profile] mbarker
Writing Excuses 13.50: What Writers Get Wrong, with Zoraida Córdova
 
 
Key points: We don't need just one of something, we need multitudes. Seeing yourself as a caricature all the time hurts at a very basic level. Don't just throw in random Spanish words, like Abuela. Different Latin countries, different families, have different nicknames for things. Subvert stereotypes, think about how you are going to make your character different. Read 100 books about a culture. Be aware that Hispanic and Latino has a lot of variations and range. The Dominican Republic and Ecuador are very different. Representation in what we create is important, both for the people who have stories about them, and the rest of us to have empathy with them. "Good representation is good craft."
 
[Brandon] Hey, guys. Just breaking in here before we start the podcast. This is Brandon, and I have a new story out that I think you might like. Little while ago, Wizards of the Coast came to me and said, "Will you write us something? You can write anything you want in any world that we've ever designed." So I was excited. I sat down and wrote a story called Children of the Nameless which is kind of a horror story-esque thing. It starts off with a blind young woman in a town listening as everyone in her town is murdered by something she can't see. So, you can find links to that on my website. It's called Children of the Nameless. Or you can go to Wizards of the Coast.com, wizards.com.
 
[Mary] Season 13, Episode 50.
[Brandon] This is Writing Excuses, What Writers Get Wrong, with Zoraida Córdova.
[Mary] 15 minutes long.
[Dan] Because you're in a hurry.
[Howard] And we're not that smart.
[Brandon] I'm Brandon.
[Mary] I'm Mary. 
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Howard] And I'm usually getting it wrong.
[Laughter]
[Brandon] We are live at ComicCon Salt Lake City.
[Whoo! Applause.]
[Brandon] We have special guest star, Zoraida Córdova.
[Zoraida] Hi, guys. 
[laughter]
[Brandon] Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
[Zoraida] Thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited.
[Mary] So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Because one of the things were trying to do is make sure that people know that culture is not a monolith. So what's your background?
[Zoraida] So I am originally from Ecuador. I was born in Guayaquil, Ecuador. I came here, I came to the United… Not here. We moved to New York when I was five. So I'm… I consider myself a… New York made. I am a writer, I write urban fantasy. I love painting, I love Star Wars, I love food. I do speak Spanish, but I don't… I no longer think in Spanish. That's a little bit about me.
 
[Mary] So, out of that stuff, are we gonna talk about Star Wars, are we going to talk about writing? What are we going to talk about?
[Zoraida] A little bit of everything, I guess. Whatever you want.
[Laughter]
[Mary] We're going to talk about being Latina in America?
[Zoraida] Yeah, let's talk about being Latina in America. I think that, especially right now, it's a little complicated because I grew up in a very, very diverse neighborhood in Queens, New York. I'm from Hollis. You recognize the song, It's Christmas Time in Hollis, Queens. I never felt like an outsider really. Because I… Everyone around me was a person of color or… Even if we had like white kids in school, they were like neighborhood kids, right? So I didn't… I was never aware of my otherness until I got into publishing. Because publishing liked to segregate books and genres for a little while. Like, my first novel went out on submission when I was 18…
[Mary] Oh, wow.
[Zoraida] Actually, 19. It was a quinceañera story, which… quinceañera are 16s, but with more pink and more cake and more family…
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] And heels. But we got… It was the same time that Jennifer Lopez was published, like, had published a quinceañera collection, and there were a couple of other quinceañera novels. So our rejections were, "This is really funny, but we already have a Latina book for the season." I feel like… Nobody says that anymore. They say it… They use more coded language, but it's almost like… It's like the Highlander, right? There can only be one of something. Because I as the Latina, in publishing, represent all other Latinos in publishing. That's wrong. It shouldn't be that way. We should have multitudes. So that's… Yeah.
[Laughter]
[Howard] I never… I mean, I get some rejections, and they're never, "We've already taken books from bald dudes."
[Laughter]
[Brandon] Right.
[Howard] Never comes up.
[Dan] We filled our white guy quota for the season.
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] Yes. Yeah. So I don't… I think that things are changing a little bit, and I think that that has to do a lot with We Need Diverse Books, the organization that came out in 2014, I believe, May 2014. It started out as a hashtag. I feel like it's not to say let's replace white authors with people of color. It's just let's make the table bigger so that we can all have a seat. I think that that inclusive… Like that inclusive mentality is what's desperately missing from publishing. My book, Labyrinth Lost, is about a girl who is… She doesn't want power, so she casts a curse to get rid of it. Instead, she gets rid of her family, and sends them to another dimension. Oops.
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] Now she has to go in get them back. But, above that, it's also about a Latina family, and how witchcraft is different from this culture. Right? Because they're brujas, which is the Spanish word for witch. At the end of the day, it's still a universal story, it's about family and sisters and having something bigger than yourself. But, it's still one Latina character.
 
[Dan] So, one of the things that… One of the side effects of this is that often when you see Latino characters being presented in media, they're not being written by people who actually are Latino. I'm guilty of this. I don't know if guilty is the right word. I've got an entire series where the main character is Latina. But. What do you see when you watch TV or you read books, and you're like, "Oh. That guy's never met a Mexican in his whole life." Like… What do people get wrong?
[Zoraida] People get the accents… In TV, people get the accents wrong, right? Like what is an accent… Ecuadorian speaking Spanish sound like? You've probably never heard it. But you've heard like Mexican accents or Colombian accents. If you watch Narcos, some Colombian people are upset because all the accents are wrong. But then again, you have a show, like Narcos, where like… They're drug dealers. Yay.
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] So that portrayal, the drug dealer, the… A book recently came out where a girl goes to Ecuador, and I'm like, "Yes! Ecuador's in a book. Finally. That I didn't write." She gets kidnapped, right? By these drug lords. I was like… It makes me… Like, it hurts. Right? On a very basic level. Because, like, seeing yourself as a caricature all the time… Latinos… Like, every time you watch a TV show, here comes the maid, and her name is Maria, and she gives you some wisdom. So it's the same problem with African-American people who have like the magical Negro who all of a sudden gives you a bunch of wisdom. Now you know, like, "Oh, I can finish my quest." That goes for all different cultures, right? We have these stereotypes. For me, and YA, it's always like the sassy best friend, or the super like curvaceous Sophia Vergara look-alike. Like, I'm sorry, I don't look like Sophia Vergara, like… If anyone's disappointed, like when you meet a Latina author. So, those are some stereotypes. I think that other ones that really bother me are when you can't establish a character… Your character's ethnicity, so you just throw in random Spanish words, right?
[Laughter]
[Zoraida] I recently read this sci-fi book, and the only way that you know that this character is Latina is because she randomly says the word Abuela. I have never used the word Abuela in my book. Because I don't call my grandmother that. I call her mommy. Because she's like my second mother. So that just shows like not doing research. Because different Latin countries use different nicknames for things. Like, different families use different nicknames for things. So that's really frustrating.
[Dan] My Latina character totally calls her grandma Abuela.
[Laughter]
[Dan] That's the one she was talking about.
[Howard] That's a Puerto Rican or a Cubano…
[Zoraida] It just means grandmother.
[Dan] It's different in every culture.
[Howard] I know, but if there's a cultural thing… I saw this in a comic book recently. I wish I could reference it directly. Where a Latino writer put a very, very Latino Abuela in the book, and it is a beautiful, beautiful moment. I think it might actually be in a Hulk comic.
[Zoraida] Really? Well, the new Groot… Groot's grandmother is Puerto Rican. He comes from like the Ceiba trees, and… You know…
[Howard] I think that might be it.
[Zoraida] Are you thinking that?
[Howard] I think Hulk was in the book.
[Zoraida] Oh, okay.
[Dan] Oh, that's super cool.
[Zoraida] Yeah. I think that's really beautiful. There are ways to do it. But that's just craft, right? Like, as writers, we want to subvert stereotypes and we want to be like, "yes, maybe I do want to write about a sexy Latina and… But how am I gonna make her different?" One of my favorite stories is Selma Hayek, when she was in Dogma, she almost didn't get cast because Kevin Smith just saw her as like, "Oh, she's just like a pretty body and face." Then he actually talked to her and was like, "Oh, maybe there's more to you than this outer shell of what you're supposed to be in Hollywood."
 
[Brandon] Let's go ahead and stop for our book of the week, although you've already kind of pitched it to us. Do it again. Labyrinth Lost.
[Zoraida] Labyrinth Lost is about a girl who sends her family to another dimension and then has to go and get them back.
[Chuckles]
[Brandon] Excellent. And… Um…
 
[Mary] So I had a question that I wanted to ask. As you were talking about some of these things that… They hurt and… I was wondering if you wouldn't mind… And the Selma Hayek story made me think of this. Can we dig into some of your own personal pain there a little bit? So you've… I'm going to extrapolate from a friend of mine who had grown up in San Francisco… Actually, no. She had grown up in Texas, as a Japanese-American in Texas. She had friends from San Francisco who were Japanese-Americans. They all went to Seattle to this very small island. The San Francisco women were going, "Why do these people keep staring at us?" She's like, "What? Are they staring?" Because she was so used to being stared at that she had just stopped noticing. So, growing up in a very diverse community, when you leave New York, what are the things that you experience that you think are probably media-based? That the… Experiences where it's like, "Oh. Oh, you've just explored…"
[Zoraida] So, I think… I haven't… I've been traveling for… I haven't been home in two months. I went home for a day last week, and then I came here. So traveling in different cities has been strange. I was in Atlanta, and I think that… Like, I don't know the Latino communities in Atlanta, but it's… People do look at you. Most of the time, I'm on my phone talking to… On my headset, so maybe that's one of the reasons. This girl's talking to herself.
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] But sometimes it's just like maybe somebody has never seen somebody that looks like me walking in their neighborhood. I won't really go to Arizona, because I'm afraid of like somebody asking… Racially profiling me or something like that. Like, I just won't go there. So when I leave New York, I… I don't always feel unsafe, I don't… It's not that I'm afraid of being around other people. Like, I'm literally surrounded by you guys right now…
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] But you're great. So I think that the problem is the language in our media right now about Latinos and about Mexicans and about like Puerto Rico and things like that. I think that has caused me to feel more guarded than I would have two years ago, right? Like, I'm always on the edge, and sort of like standing near somebody, like, "Are they going to say something inappropriate? Are they going to like…" If I'm on the phone with my mom, should I talk to her in English or should I talk to her in Spanish? Because like, if I'm talking in Spanish… You see these videos that go viral where somebody's like, "It's America. Speak English." I'm like, "Well, go back to England and speak English."
[Laughter]
[Zoraida] So like, it's just being afraid to do things that were normal to me two years ago.
[Mary] Right.
[Zoraida] That are a little frightening. If you look at the things from the earthquake right now in Mexico, there are these people… There's a photo of a 90-year-old man carrying boxes to help his neighbors. So, like, these are the people that our leader calls like rapists and murderers? Meanwhile, there are some of the most helpful people like coming together for a tragedy. Where do I fit in that? Because I'm not Mexican, but if you… I don't know what people see when they look at me. Because I only know what I see when I look at me. Hopefully, it's like good things right now.
[Mary] Your hair is fantastic.
[Zoraida] Thank you.
[Laughter]
[Howard] Sorry we had to put the bandanna on it.
[Mary] Yeah.
[Zoraida] I like it. I feel like I'm at Woodstock.
 
[Brandon] So, say we've got a listener who says, "I really wanted to add some Latino/Latina characters to my book." Where would you say they begin? How do they go about that, doing it the right way?
[Zoraida] So… Just with writing, there is no one right way to do things. Right? I think that Cynthia Leitich Smith, who… She's a native American author. She says if you want to write about somebody, read 100 books about that person, about that person's culture. If you can't find 100 books, then are you the person to add to this? Right? That's one way. I think that with Latinos, you have to figure out… Don't say… Like, I'm not telling you how to write, how to say Latino, how to say Hispanic, but there are very, very different connotations. Like, I am Hispanic and Latina, because part of me is from Spain. But there are some Latinos who have no Spanish blood, they're still indigenous, or they're Afro-Latino. So, like, figure out what those things mean. Figure out what country they're from. Because even though we speak a similar language, although our accents are completely different, we have completely different histories. The history of the Dominican Republic in the Caribbean is going to be different than the history of Ecuador in South America. So figuring out that there is no way to look Latino… That's one of the things that really bothers me, because when people think Latino, they think light skin or tan or… They don't think Afro-Latino. They don't think of somebody like Rosario Dawson or Zoe Saldana. They think of Sophia Vergara. I'm sorry for using her over and over again, but I'm blanking out.
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] On my Latina actresses. So, I think it's doing a research that doesn't feel like anthropology, because anthropology also is about studying a culture to then destroy it, right?
[Mary] Yeah, we can… If you're not clear on that, go back and listen to our colonialism episode, and that'll help clear that up a little bit.
[Zoraida] Colonization, yay!
 
[Howard] One of the things that is… Doesn't get said enough is the importance of representation in the things that we create. My oldest son is autistic. We were watching an episode of Elementary in which Sherlock Holmes is talking to the woman who becomes his girlfriend, who is portrayed as autistic. It's different from how my son's autism manifests. He stood behind the couch watching the episode for about 15 minutes. For the first time ever… Ever! Watching TV, he said, "They're kind of like me." That moment! There are kids who are Latino, who are black, who are female, who are all kinds of ways, who never get to say that. We need to hear… We need to hear your voice. We need to hear diverse voices so that these people have stories about them.
[Mary] Well, it… Just to use a… Not… A non-loaded example, the… Oh, shoot. I've just forgotten her name. Astronaut. Um. She just did…
[Howard] Mae Jemi…
[Mary] No. No, no, no. She's white. Which is why it's a non-loaded example, because white is the American default. Sorry. But she just got the record for the most number of days in space. And said that being an astronaut had never been on her radar at all, until NASA picked… When she was in late high school, NASA picked the first class of female astronauts. She was like, "Oh, I want to do that." If she had not seen that role model, she wouldn't have pursued that. For a lot of people, the role model comes from fiction. Learning through fiction that, "Oh, that could be me," or "I could do that." Or just "I am not alone. This experience that I'm having is not alone." There's… While you were surrounded, there are also… When I was going to elementary schools, I would go into elementary schools in Idaho and it would be a sea of white kids and one little brown kid. One child. So that child was getting everything through books.
[Zoraida] Right. I think it's a… It's not just important for us, for like diverse people to see themselves in books, it's also important for like white kids to see other people in books.
[Dan] Absolutely.
[Zoraida] Because that creates empathy. Like, as writers, our biggest thing is to create empathy through our works. When I lived in Montana for a brief period of time when I was in college, I'd never seen so many blonde people in my life.
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] So, I would… But the people who would come up to me were native people who were like, "What tribe are you from?" Because I was confusing to them. I'm like, "I'm from the Ecuadorian tribe."
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] So…
[Laughter]
[Zoraida] So, it's… We confound each other as people, but I think that as long as we create inclusive stories… You don't have to make it a point to say like… You don't have to make a checklist of I have a disabled character and I have a character who's queer and Latino. You… It has to be organic to your story, too, right? You don't want to create two-dimensional characters. But that's just craft. So good representation is good craft.
 
[Mary] Can you give some examples of some good craft? Some books or media where you've been like, "Ah, yes. Thank you. Thank you for using your craft to do this well?"
[Zoraida] I'm a really big fan of Leigh Bardugo and Six of Crows. I think that that is an example of a really diverse cast of con artists…
[Chuckles]
[Zoraida] I'm trying to think of lately… Benjamin Alire Saenz, who writes queer Latino boys. And Adam Silvera, who also writes queer Latino boys. But they're completely different from each other. Part of that has to do with one is in the Southwest and one is from the Bronx.
 
[Brandon] Well, we are out of time. I want to thank our audience at ComicCon.
[Whoo! Whistles!]
[Brandon] And I want to thank Zoraida for coming on the podcast with us. Thank you very much.
[Zoraida] Thank you.
 
[Brandon] Mary? You've got a writing prompt for us.
[Mary] Yeah. What I want you to do is I want you to go and… This echoes something that you've done previously, which is reading outside of the box. I want you to go and find books written by authors in, let's say… See if you can find a couple of Ecuadorian authors. Read them. Then… You've got a suggestion?
[Zoraida] No, I was going to say, challenge accepted.
[Laughter]
[Mary] Try and find a couple of Ecuadorian authors. Then, make one of your secondary characters… Not your main character. Make one of your secondary characters from Ecuador.
[Brandon] All right. This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses, now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 13.34: Q&A on Character Arcs

Aug. 29th, 2018 11:30 am
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Writing Excuses 13.34: Q&A on Character Arcs
 
 
Q&A Summary: 
Q: How do you fulfill your promises about a character arc without being cliché?
Q: How do you subvert a common character arc without it feeling like betraying a promise to a reader? 
A: How do you give them what they want without just being obvious about it? Use the predictability test: If at the beginning of the story you can predict the resolution, there's something wrong. BUT some stories, readers, genres or subgenres, fulfilling expectations is the right thing to do. Name that tune, or sing along? Make sure the promise can be fulfilled in multiple ways, then pick a surprising one that is more fulfilling. Have the character wanting at least two things, and then give them at least one. Make the character original, unique, and their reaction will also be original and unique.
Q: Do you need to complete each character arc in the story? For a character in a series, should each book contain a complete character arc, or should the entire series cover one large arc? How do you tie multiple character arcs together when you're writing the first book of a trilogy? With lots of character arcs, how do you interweave them?
A: If all the character arcs follow the same shape, that can feel artificial. However, if the arcs are staggered so that one person has a completely unresolved crisis at the end of the story, that may feel unsatisfying. Look for plateaus, stopping points along the arc, for individual characters.
Q: What separates an iconic character from a caricature? Or a stereotype?
A: Make the character unique. Caricatures are exaggerated and one-sided, while iconic characters don't change from episode to episode. Separate iconic, not changing, from archetype. If a similar iconic character from another series can replace your iconic character, you may have a caricature.
Q: Have you ever had an iconic character, upon further exploration, become a character in need of an arc? How would you make that transition?
A: Comics are often forced to reboot because they are trying to do this. However, books often take iconic characters from one book and put them in a second book where they have an arc.
Q: How do you continue a character's story after they've completed their original arc?
A: Think about your parents' roles in your story. Put the character and what they've learned in a new situation. Make sure your character has enough depth and layers.
Q: How much does a character need to change in their arc? Does it always have to be a major, permanent, life-redefining change?
A: It needs to be enough to see a difference. Satisfy the reader that a change has occurred. Set up the right conflict and make the right promise. Some change, some growth, even if they're not perfect at the end.
 
( A bunch of questions and answers! )
[Brandon] This is Writing Excuses, Q&A on Character Arcs.
[Valynne] 15 minutes long.
[Dan] Because you're in a hurry.
[Howard] And we're not that smart.
[Brandon] I'm Brandon.
[Valynne] I'm Valynne.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Howard] I'm Howard.
 
[Brandon] We have your questions. Ian asks, "How do you fulfill your promises about a character arc without being cliché?" Good question.
[Laughter]
[Dan] I don't know.
[Brandon] Oh, come on.
[Dan] I'm a very cliché author.
[Brandon] Get on it, get on it.
[Dan] Okay. Fulfilling problems without being cliché. I don't know if there's a direct tracking line between those.
[Brandon] Okay, here's another…
[Howard] Let me approach it a different way.
[Brandon] There's actually another question… The next question is by Connor and… I think it's the same sort of thing.
[Dan] Okay.
[Brandon] How do you subvert a common character arc without it feeling like a… Betraying a promise to a reader? That's what they're all getting at. How do you…
[Dan] Okay. How do you give them what they want without just being obvious about it?
[Brandon] Yes. That is the question.
[Dan] Subvert that without feeling like you've deceived them.
[Howard] There are so very, very many movies, stories out there, whatever, where the character arc for our main character is discovering the importance of their friends. We see that all the time. If, at the beginning of your story, you know that's where you're headed and you can predict it… If that is predictably the resolution, you may have cliché problems. You can still fulfill a promise along those lines, you just need to not… I use the predictability test all the time. If I can predict a line of dialogue in a movie, then something's probably wrong. If I can predict, "Oh, this next scene, this is where they kiss. He's going to drop something. They're going to…"
[Brandon] Now, let me say, there are certain stories and readers where fulfilling the expectation in the way that you anticipate and want is the right thing to do. It depends on the story you're telling, the way you… The promises you make. Some books will promise to subvert expectations. Some books will promise not to. In fact, I remember reading through several romance novel entries on Amazon where the description of the book says, in big bolded letters, this is a book with a happily ever after and no cheating. That was repeated on most of the pages I went to in this sub genre. Big, bold letters. That is a promise that that trope is not going to get subverted because the reader's looking for it. So you really have to decide, am I trying to subvert things or not?
[Dan] I remember when we had Mike Stackpole on the show, and he talked about writing plots as playing name that tune with your readers, and you want to be just ahead. If they guess the tune too early, then you've lost them. But I do think there is another kind of reader that just wants to sing along with the song, because they know it so well.
[Brandon] Right. There's nothing wrong with that. I would say this is something that I really enjoy doing, is playing name the tune with the reader. The way that you make it not feel like a betrayal, but not like a cliché either, is you make sure that this promise can get fulfilled in multiple ways, and that the one you pick is not necessarily the first one they'd pick, but is in some way more fulfilling. So you kind of have to identify what is the need and how do you fill it, and you promise you're going to fill it in a certain way in the middle of the book, but then you give a better promise… You always have to do a better job.
[Dan] One of the things that I do a lot… We talk about the Hollywood Formula a lot on this show, and how you need to set out knowing what a character wants. I have found that if I can make sure my character really wants at least two things, then I can totally screw one of those up on purpose, and you will still be happy when he or she gets the other one. That's a way of making sure that the character arcs are still driving this plot.
[Valynne] Well, I think if you've invested enough time in making sure that your character is original and unique, then the way that they're going to solve that problem or get to… Or what we want fulfilled, will also be original and unique. You need to write a character that he's not like anyone else, and so it makes sense that character would solve the problem this way.
 
[Brandon] So, we've got multiple questions on a similar topic, so I'm going to kind of meld them altogether. This is from Ben, and from Jessica, and from Anthony, and they're asking about multiple character arcs in the same story. Do you need to complete each character arc in the story? Like, Jessica asks, "For a character in a series, should each book contain a complete character arc, or should the entire series cover one large arc?" Then Ben's question… Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, Ben's question is, "How do you tie multiple character arcs together when you're writing the first book of a trilogy?" A lot of questions about lots of character arcs, how do you interweave them? What do you do?
[Howard] If they all form… And when I think of a character arc, I think of the narrative curve, that bump shape that drops off kind of sharply at the end. If all of the character arcs in the book follow that same shape, it's going to feel kind of artificial and kind of weird. If, however, all of the arcs are staggered to the point that one person is in crisis at the end of the story and you can tell it's completely unresolved, that may feel unsatisfying. So what I try and do is find plateaus, stopping points along the arc, along a character's arc, where, for this story, I can park them there… Maybe for the whole story. Their arc is not complete, their arc is six books long, but I can park them there, and we'll be happy. So thinking of it as tiers along this arc, and within a given story, which steps are they moving between? That model works really well for me.
[Dan] As an example, the original Star Wars trilogy, Luke and Han each have an arc in each movie. It goes and it's complete. Whereas Leia has one larger arc that takes all three movies to fulfill.
 
[Brandon] All right. Let's go ahead and stop for our book of the week. Our book of the week is Fat Angie.
[Valynne] Fat Angie, by e. E. Charlton-Trujillo. One of the things that I love about this book is that it's both funny, but just really has some tender moments. It's about a girl who is overweight in high school. Her older sister is in the military and missing. She's the only one who thinks that her sister is still alive out there somewhere. So I think that for a lot of military families, this is… Might have a lot of meaning for them. She, in the beginning of the book, has tried to kill herself, commits suicide in front of the entire school, and is working through a lot of those issues of just learning to figure out the kind of person she is, the kind of person that she wants to be, what she wants to be known for, and that is not this act that she is currently known for. It's a wonderful romance, in terms of the fact that she's trying to figure out her sexual identity. I think that the way that the author handles this book is just perfect. The mix of just being so realistic, and having the teenage angst of dealing with these really important issues, but handling them very realistically.
[Brandon] Excellent. So it's called Fat Angie?
[Valynne] Umhum.
[Howard] By e. E. Charlton-Trujillo?
[Valynne] Umhum.
 
[Brandon] All right. Questions. Back to questions from the audience. There are several questions about iconic characters. John asks, "What separates an iconic character from a caricature? Or a stereotype?"
[Dan] Oooo... Interesting.
[Valynne] Well, I think that you're still going to make that character unique in some ways. I mean, not everyone is Superman and has the powers that he does and can… Run as fast as he can and has the superstrength. He's an iconic hero, and so is James Bond. They have completely different attributes. So, I think what defines an iconic character is, and we've discussed this in a previous episode, is just the situations that they're thrown into, and the way they react.
[Dan] Well, I think that a caricature is arguably much more exaggerated and one-sided than an iconic character. You look at… If I say Capt. Kirk, most people are going to imagine a hotshot who just sleeps with weird alien women and disregards the rules. You look at the original series, he is definitely an iconic character. He doesn't change from episode to episode. But he is much more layered and nuanced and interesting than what we tend to think. He is an iconic character. Our vision of him now, looking back, is very caricatured.
[Brandon] Right. I think it's good to separate iconic, meaning not changing, from an archetype, which iconic character can totally be. But Mr. Spock is also iconic. He's not changing through that series. But also very layered, very interesting, very in conflict with himself. So separate those two things in your mind. If you're worried about clichés and stereotypes, you can build a character who is not one who still doesn't change, if that's what you're interested in doing.
[Howard] If your iconic character can be, in your book, replaced by an iconic character of similar skill set from someone else's series, it might be a caricature.
[Dan] That's… Yeah.
 
[Brandon] So, next question on iconic characters is, "Have you ever had an iconic character, upon further exploration, become a character in need of an arc? How would you make that transition?" Now, this is dangerous, because we've talked about how comics basically keep trying to do this, and then get forced to reboot and things like this. I totally think it's possible. In fact, I see a lot of books, what you will see people doing is there will be a series where there's a main character and kind of several iconic individuals around them. The main character has an arc. Then they write a second book that takes one of these characters that is maybe… Was a little bit… Didn't have an arc in the first book, didn't change, and then they get an arc, and then they get an arc.
[Dan] You can see this in a ton of webcomics in particular. Sluggy Freelance, that was just a joke a week, and then turned into a long story. Same with Sam and Fuzzy, same with Dr. McNinja. Same with, I think, Schlock.
[Howard] Yup. I gave him a character arc. He's an iconic hero, and then I gave him a character arc and established a new baseline for him. Because it's not a brand like Frosted Flakes or DC Comics, I am allowed to keep those changes. I don't have to reboot. I think better examples than comics are Death in the Terry Pratchett books. For most of those books, he is always the same character, and he's delightful when he shows up. Then we have a book in which Death decides to retire for a while, and becomes, I think, Bill Door. It's beautiful. He gets his own little arc. Hogfather kind of gives him his own little arc. So, yeah, this… Totally, you can do it.
 
[Brandon] All right. How do you continue a character's story after they've completed their original arc? I love this question.
[Valynne] So are we talking about sequels or… Okay.
[Brandon] Yes. I think a sequel. You've written a story. This one didn't have a name on it. Whoever asked this question, good question. You've written a story. The character's had a big, complete arc. And then you're going to put them in the next book. What do you do?
[Howard] What are your parents' roles in your story? Because when they were teenagers, they were very distraught individuals who were the heroes of their own story. Probably every bit as self-absorbed as the average teenager. But now that you're growing up, or that you're an adult, what are your parents' roles in your story? Because fundamentally, I think that's the question that's being asked here. When you… When we emerge from our period of change and stabilize, what do we become to the next generation of heroes?
[Valynne] Or, even if you look at it in terms of a shorter timeframe, for like a young adult book, you're looking at maybe just like a few months sometimes from beginning to end, but the arc suggests that their character starts in one place and grows and becomes something else, so I think that you just look at what are the nat… Like, this person is now not exactly the same person they were before. They are… You take that character and what they've learned and then throw them in a new situation and see how what they learned can affect whatever they're going into next.
[Dan] A lot of the time when this is a problem, it's because the character was originally designed around one specific conflict, and there's not enough depth to keep going. You look at what happened with Data in the Next Generation movies. Once he finally got emotions, the writers had no idea what to do with him. Compare that to say Oz in the Buffy series who went through tons of different phases of his life and completed long character arcs, but he was an interesting enough and layered enough character that the writers were able to say, "Well, what can we do with him next?"
[Howard] That's why I used the parent example. Parents are not… It doesn't have to be that kind of a timeframe. It can be a fairly short timeframe. They are, for many people, sources of stability, sources of rescue, sources of advice. They are, for other people, sources of continual conflict because they disagree with them. When you have a character who has completed their arc, if you want to tell a story about a character arc, you're telling somebody else's story, and the character who has completed their arc features into that in some way that's critically important.
 
[Brandon] Last question comes from Kalika. They ask, "How much does a character need to change in their arc? Does it always have to be a major, permanent, life-redefining change?"
[Valynne] I don't know if that's always realistic, but I think it needs to be enough that you can see a difference.
[Howard] Satisfy me. If you promised me that this person is going to be changed by the experience in this book, I have to be satisfied that a change has occurred. It can be a tiny thing, it can be a big thing. I guess it depends on the conflict, it depends on the character, it depends on the length of the story.
[Dan] I think figuring out what you want to do, so that you can present the right conflict and make the right promise… If you set us up where this person's conflict is that they are a terrible person who can't connect with everyone else because they're mean all the time, and then they end the story still a terrible person and mean all the time, you haven't resolved the conflict or kept the promise you made in the beginning. If you present that same character, but give us a different conflict that is smaller and less life-changing, then, okay, I'm willing to go along with them still being a jerk at the end. Because you've still resolved the thing you told me you were going to resolve.
[Valynne] I don't think you… I don't think everything has to be magically perfect in the end, I just want to see some change. Some growth.
 
[Brandon] All right. We are out of time. Thank you guys so much for sending in your questions. These have been great questions. Dan has a writing prompt.
[Dan] Yes, I do.
[Brandon] Did you forget?
[Dan] Yes.
[Laughter]
[Brandon] I warned you ahead of time.
[Dan] I know, I know. I don't have a writing prompt.
[Brandon] Howard? Do you have a writing prompt?
[Howard] I did at the beginning of the episode, but then Dan assured us that he…
[Dan] I assured no one. I merely said okay.
[Howard] You said, "I'll have this by the end. I'm on this."
[Chuckles]
[Howard] I felt very reassured.
[Dan] Dear listener. We actually before recording this talked about how we use to blindside our guests with writing prompts. So, Brandon is taking great delight in now doing it to us.
[Brandon] [inaudible]
[Dan] Even though it's not even technically blindsiding, because he told me. I want you to write, dear listener, a story in which Brandon asks someone for a writing prompt, and that person is unprepared, and Brandon receives great karmic justice.
[Laughter]
[Valynne] Ouch. Pretty savage there.
[Brandon] All right. I guess I'll…
[Howard] Alternatively…
[Dan] I didn't say which side of karma Brandon was on.
[Howard] Alternatively, do an image search on mountains. Trace a mountain onto a piece of paper. Now make that outline the arc for your character.
[Brandon] This has been Writing Excuses. I hope we didn't give you any excuses. Now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 13.15: What Writers Get Wrong, with Mike Stop Continues

Apr. 18th, 2018 11:20 am
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Writing Excuses 13.15: What Writers Get Wrong, with Mike Stop Continues
 
 
Key points: Gay people just want to read about people who happen to be gay, not about gay topics. Gay people often lean into stereotypes. Gay people create their own culture. There is a whole spectrum of ways that you enact being gay. Even passers support flamboyant gay people. The media does seem to have more flamboyant gay characters than subdued gay characters. Pay attention to the order of reveals. Happily married, loves sushi, and gay OR gay, happily married, loves sushi? Look at characters as a mystery, reveal clues, and then the big reveal. Be aware of you and your readers' defaults. Do your research, get gay readers from within the gay community, and talk to people on the Internet to write better gay characters. "What's his secret?" Mostly, just make characters who happen to be gay. 
 
( Behind the curtains... )
[Dan] This is Writing Excuses, What Do Writers Get Wrong, with Mike Stop Continues.
[Mary] 15 minutes long.
[Aliette] Because you're in a hurry.
[Howard] And we're not that smart.
[Dan] I'm Dan.
[Mary] I'm Mary.
[Aliette] I'm Aliette.
[Howard] And I'm Howard.
[Dan] Joining us today, we have special guest, Mike Stop Continues. Mike, that is an awesome name. Please tell us about yourself.
[Mike] Thanks. So, I'm the author of the King Cage superhero series, which takes place almost entirely beneath New York City, and Underworld, a young adult coming-of-age story that takes place in rural Pennsylvania.
 
[Dan] Well, awesome. Okay. So, this is part of our series of what do writers get wrong. Mary, tell us about what that series is about.
[Mary] So, with this series, what we're doing is, we're talking to different people who… About their life experience and using that… Using them, yes, we are using them…
[Chuckles]
[Mary] To help you as writers better represent people in your books. So, Mike, for instance, has multiple facets that we could talk about. What are some of those facets?
[Mike] So, in addition to being an author, I love sushi, I've got no sense of smell, and I'm a gay man who's happily married.
[Mary] What are we going to be focusing on today?
[Mike] Me being a gay man.
[Mary] So, what writers get wrong about being a gay man. Awesome.
 
[Dan] I am excited to talk about this. So the first question is given away in the title. What is something that you see often, portrayed in television and movies and in books, about being a gay man that writers get wrong?
[Mike] The biggest thing is that most gay people, most gay men, just want to read about people who happen to be gay, not about AIDS or coming out or about homophobia or about any of that stuff. They just want to see characters who happen to be gay.
[Mary] I think that is the case with a lot of the topics that we're going to covering, which is one of the things that I just want you readers to remember that, that people can exist in your story without having a reason to be the way that they are.
[Mike? Exactly.]
[Mary] Unless you are justifying why they are.
 
[Dan] I want to push this question even a little further. I think that's a great answer, but I want something juicier than that. What do you absolutely hate when you see gay men, gay people, portrayed in media, and you're like, "That again! Grrr."
[Mary] Like, the clichés that are actively offensive.
[Mike] Well, that's the funny thing about… There are obviously some characters that are taken way too far. But, in general, I think that the thing that's different about gay characters is that a lot… You meet a lot of people who lean into stereotypes in the gay community. Like, the fun part about that is that since all the gay people come from all different parts of the planet, we have to create our own culture. So, to do that, we sort of play with it more than other people do. So you'll end up with people who lean into stereotypes, who enjoy them. So that's something that I think that sometimes… Sometimes it's just wrongly done, but most of the time, we relate with those characters because we know those people. It's… There's a whole spectrum of kinds of… I guess the way that… the way that you enact being gay, right? So…
[Mary] Can you talk a little bit more about what it means to lean into a stereotype? Because I think that a lot of people aren't familiar with that, necessarily, as a term.
[Mike] Okay. So, for instance, you've all seen the… Like, the flamboyant gay character. Right? Someone who's… You know, like you could say that they're flaming or you could say lots of things that are negative about them. But, in general, they're… They're actively… They're proud, and they're loud, about being gay. Right? Now that's something that… That… That we learned to do because most of our lives are spent being… Feeling ashamed, right? And being closeted. Not being willing to show anyone that we were gay. So once you come out of the closet, you sort of want to have the exact opposite experience. So really, they're… And we all do it to different levels, like… You know, in small ways… I guess those of us who end up being classified as passers, right? In small ways, we all find ways to let the people around us know that we're gay. But some people… Some people like to do it more. No matter what gay person you encounter, no matter what their… No matter what their tells are, we all support that. So, you know what I mean? Like, that I think is the big thing that gets mistaken a lot. So, like when someone like me goes out into the world and somebody discovers I'm gay, they typically will say something like, "Oh, I never could have… I never would have told. I never…" "Oh, excuse me. I never would have known." Then they'll… Occasionally, say something that's less nice about people that they did know were gay from how they behaved. That's… I mean, sometimes… Like if… No gay person will ever be okay with you saying that. You know what I mean? So, like… We like that they do that, because… Because they're as proud as we are, it's just that some… We just all express it in different ways.
[Mary] You use the word that I wasn't sure that I recognized. You said labeled as…
[Mike] Oh, passers.
[Mary] Passers!
[Mike] That's obviously…
[Mary] I just didn't hear it clearly. But again, we should probably define that for our listeners.
[Mike] Right. So that's… That's a term borrowed from African-Americans, right? African-Americans who could pass as being white. It's the same thing in the gay community. We have gay people who can pass as being straight. So… There is where that word comes from.
 
[Aliette] Well, I mean, one of the things I see a lot with like Asians for instance is like you tend to always have the same representation over and over again. I wonder how much of that is happening with like gay people on screen. Do they always seem like they're the same kind of person? Because you mentioned, there's a whole spectrum, and different people have lots of different experiences. I wonder, when people say, "So-and-so was gay," and "I guess that they were gay," and they say these rudely offensive things, basically, I wonder, like you get that from media, right? So how much of that do you think [inaudible change]…
[Mike] Right. So, in media, we definitely do see flamboyant gay men more than… More than, I guess, let's say passing gay men, right?
[Aliette] Subdued? Maybe subdued or quieter?
[Mike] Subdued. Yeah. And that's okay. But I can say from personal experience that I was like in my late 20s when I first saw Capt. Jack on Doctor Who, and I cried, because that was… I wish I had that character in my life when I was younger. So, like, it's important that there are lots of different kinds of gay characters out there, and that's why the best and most important way to do that is just make a character who happens to be gay.
 
[Howard] Yeah. In my consumption of media, some of my favorite… Some of my favorite characters are the gay characters who didn't have a tell until something came up where it was important, and I'm allowed to realize that… Just like you, I am married and I love sushi. We are very, very similar…
[Laughter]
[Howard] On a couple of key counts. And I'm allowed to identify with characters who, in one aspect, yes, they're unlike me. But I can still identify with them. Part of what… I think part of what we struggle against is that culturally, a great many of us will be pushed away by the flamboyance, by the initial representation, because for fear or for any number of other reasons, we don't want to identify. My feeling is, no, I want to identify because that's how everybody gets to be a human in my head.
[Aliette] But, I mean, isn't there a risk if you do, like, that reveal really late, that the reader's going to feel like it's a little bait-and-switch? Of like, oh, I didn't think they were gay, and then… Because I've had people say, "I didn't realize that the character was gay," or queer or [Persian?] until fairly late in the book, and then, you're pushing back against their own preconceptions. They build this sort of mental image, and you're like basically coming in and crashing their party and saying, "No no no no no, I'm the author and I'm right." So I feel like… Do you think it would work if you had a… Like a normal… Like a person who was… Sorry. Who was married, loving sushi, and was out… Who you said was gay from the start?
[Mary] So, it looks like Mike had something to say.
[Aliette] Sorry.
[Mike] So, I mean, recently we have lots of gay characters in media… Or, not enough, but more than we've had before.
[Laughter]
[Mike] But… But… But if you look at, for instance, like a… Like gay film criticism, we look at movies that don't overtly have gay characters in it, and we spend a lot of our time, and historically have spent a lot of our time, dissecting characters that seemed to suggest that they were gay. So we get used to… We get used to looking at gay characters… Okay, looking at characters as a mystery. So I've heard from many author that exact criticism, Aliette. But I think the way that you can do it, maybe better… Not you. I think the way that writers can do it…
[Aliette] Aaaa… I'm really interested.
[Mike] Is to frame it like a mystery. Have a few clues that once you get to the point where you… Where it's… Where the character becomes obvious, then you can say, "Oh, I should have known," based on these few little things that came up beforehand.
 
[Mary] I just want to flag…
[Dan] We… We… We… Go ahead.
[Mary] Need to stop for…
[Dan] We need to stop for a book of the week. Like three minutes ago. But. You finish your flags.
[Mary] So, the thing that I wanted to… I just want to flag that one of the things that we're talking around here is that we have a default, and the default is straight. This is the same way in fiction that the default in America in 2017 and for quite a while after that and probably quite a while in the future, the default is white. Like, when you guys are listening to this podcast, you guys cannot see us. But we were talking the other day, and the core podcasters, Dan, Howard, Brandon, that other guy, and me…
[Chuckles]
[Mary] We're… This podcast is 100% white. This podcast is also 100% straight. We're only 75% women. Er... We're only 75% men. Excuse me, 25% women.
[Chuckles]
[Dan] I was excited for a minute.
[Mary] But the thing is… The thing is that the fact that this podcast is all white and all straight is not surprising to you. Because you have a default set in your head. So one of the things to be aware of when you're doing this is that… If you feel like I need to mark my character as gay, you should also perhaps be considering that one of the ways you can address that default is by also marking your straight characters. And marking your characters who are ace or bi or… Or… Pansexual as Capt. Jack is. So be aware of your own tendency to default to an unmarked state, and this is a good time to examine that.
 
[Mary] Now we have a book of the week.
[Dan] We do. Thank you for handing it to me. I'm going to hand it to Mike. Mike, what's our book of the week?
[Mike] So, the book of the week is my first novel, Underworld. It's about two brothers growing up in rural Pennsylvania who are chasing… Who are chasing the same girl. One because he loves her, and the other because he doesn't want to be gay. So, I think it's clear what the… Why that's the… Why I said… Why I picked that as the book of the week.
[Dan] That sounds awesome. Tell us the title again.
[Mike] Underworld.
[Dan] Underworld. Awesome. I actually first heard that as two boys growing up in rural Transylvania, but I'm…
[Laughter]
[Dan] [garbled switching] it to Pennsylvania.
[Aliette] I also heard Transylvania, but…
[Laughter garbled]
[Aliette] As a default.
[Dan] Two young vampires growing up in rural T… Okay. Underworld.
[Mary] No. Two young men who people assume are vampires…
[Mike] Well, now they do.
[Dan] Now we're getting…
 
[Dan] We don't have much time left, and I would really love to focus, if we can, on some constructive advice. I'm going to start with the question, what have you seen… Can you give us a quick example of something you've seen in media that made you think, "Wow. That writer really did his or her research. They know what they're talking about."
[Mike] Actually, yes. This book has a tremendous trigger warning. It's by Hanya Yanagihara. She wrote… She. It's a woman. This is what is so special about this book. Wrote this book called A Little Life. It's one of the best gay love stories I have ever read. It's beautiful. On every level, this book is beautiful. The thing that showed that she understood the subject matter was that her characters' discovery of their love for one another is so organic and so real that there was… That even though… That there was no question in my mind that this woman had spoken to many gay men about how the… What their experience of romance and what their experience of sex was. It was beautiful. Brilliant.
[Dan] Cool. So what are some things then that writers can do… And I'm going to make this question difficult, because you're not allowed to say do your research and you're not allowed to say have gay readers from within the gay community. What can writers do, other than those things, to help write better gay characters?
[Mike] Okay. So. Oh, gosh, I don't know if I'm going to be breaking your rules here, but…
[Chuckles]
[Mike] One thing that I do when I need to learn about people who are not myself is I go on the Internet and I find those people. So, for instance, if you go on Reddit or you make an account on OkCupid or like anywhere that people meet other people, it's really easy to meet other people and to start talking to them about whatever it is about them that you're interested in. That doesn't mean... like I just mentioned OKCupid because it's great for talking to people about... especially intimate issues. They're more willing to talk, I think, there. But don't catfish people. Don't pretend to be a gay man to talk to gay men. You know what I mean? Like, be yourself, and just say, "Hey, listen. I see your profile. You're very much like a character that I'm interested in writing. Can I ask you some questions about your experience?"
[Mary] That's a really great idea that I'm totally stealing.
[Laughter]
[Howard] The takeaway, I think, Mike, from your answer to Dan's questions with its completely unfair precondition...
[Laughter]
[Howard] Is this is a difficult thing for which there are no shortcuts. There is no easy button. You can't just make sure you include this word or this sentence. It doesn't work that way. You have to do some homework, you have to meet some people, you have to talk, you have to learn how people... How people be.
 
[Mary] So one of the things that we often talk about is the whole write what you know, which I think is better expressed as extrapolate from what you know. When you were talking about how you would search for representations of yourself in media, what are the tells? What are the things that make you feel like you are present in that?
[Mike] In non-gay characters?
[Mary] In characters that are not demarcated.
[Mike] Okay. Right.
[Mary] Yes.
[Mike] So, actually anyone who seems… For me, as a gay man, anyone who seems uncomfortable with women or any man who seems uncomfortable with women. Any male character who has… Who seems to be portrayed as having a secret. You think, "What's his secret?" Especially… I can think of two Hitchcock movies that are brilliant with this. I think they both unquestionably have gay subtext. One is Strangers on a Train and the other is Rope. The main character in both of those movies is a gay man. The movies, there's no suggestion that… Or there's no overt suggestion that the movies are about being gay. But both of them definitely are. So I highly recommend those as a way to see that thing. Because I'm having a little bit of a hard time articulating it.
[Mary] It is difficult, I think… And this is also one of the things for you, readers and listeners, is that… Remember that your experience is normal. So when you're going to someone from within a community, you're asking them to describe their own normal, which is like asking a fish to describe water. It's often very difficult to pinpoint the parts of your life that other people don't experience. Which is why I thought, well, if we can talk about the things that you see, that these are potentially things that other people can extrapolate from. Like I extrapolate from what it's like to have a secret, even if it isn't that secret.
[Mike] Actually, one more [thought?] that I had similar to that is that… Like I said earlier, since gay people come from every walk of life and they come together, they are… There is very different subcultures within the gay community. So if you're interested in writing gay characters, the one easy way to do it is just to make a character who happens to be gay. But if you're interested in going deeper into the community, learn the different subcultures that exist there, because just like in the world that you live in, there are lots of different smaller groups that you might find interesting enough to write about.
[Dan] That is super interesting. I wish we had time to go into some of those subcultures, but we're unfortunately out of time. Thank you very much for being here.
[Mike] Thank you.
 
[Dan] This was a really interesting discussion. So, do you have some writing homework you can give us?
[Mike] Yes. So take your work in progress. Take any… Start with a scene. Take any character in that scene, and make that character… Change their sexual identity. So it could be to gay, to lesbian, bisexual, asexual, pansexual. Whatever it is. Rewrite the scene. But see just how little you have to change to make that character a different… Have a different sexual identity. You'll be surprised. It might be zero words. You might have to change literally nothing.
[Dan] Awesome. I think that sounds fantastic. Well, thank you again. This has been Writing Excuses. You are out of excuses. Now go write.
 
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Writing Excuses 6.15: Writing Other Cultures

Sep. 15th, 2011 03:26 pm
[identity profile] mbarker.livejournal.com
Writing Excuses 6.15: Writing Other Cultures

From http://www.writingexcuses.com/2011/09/11/writing-excuses-6-15-writing-other-cultures/

Key points: approach it with integrity, authenticity, and research. Beware the homogenous culture -- remember the Klingon belly dancer! Ultimately, we are all human. Don't write to the stereotype or to the average. Do the research, wed it to an understanding of people, and build interesting characters who feel right. Give them something else to care about, something else at stake. A character whose identity is "The Other" has no identity.
( which word did I leave out? )
[Brandon] We are out of time. But... Lauren, here's something we do to guests, and I'm going to do it to you.
[Lauren] Oh, dear God.
[Brandon] Yes, I know. But we're going to ask you for a writing prompt. If you can think of one. You just have to come up with something that people could write a story about. Just ask them a question or some concept. Make them do.
[Lauren] Take some aspect of your neighborhood. Twist it around in the same kind of way that district 9 twisted a suburb of Soweto around.
[Brandon] Okay. That's a great one. Thank you for being on the podcast, and thank you all for listening. You're out of excuses, now go write.
[Applause]
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